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A Walk in Hong Kong

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Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#381

Post by woutr_be »

spectramax wrote: post #377
woutr_be wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's honestly quite a lot of misinformation about how people live their lives in China. Many of my friends are perfectly capable of accessing blocked websites, and they're by no means computer experts. They all have been able to travel because of their increase in wealth, and most of them are in contact with foreigners from all over the world. To them, they live in a society with restrictions, but they've all bene…

This is such an absurd reasoning. Just because people have circumvented the Great Fire Wall has no bearing on what the parent comment is talking about - GFW is the consequence of the evil things an authoritarian government is capable of doing (amongst other freedom of speech and press issues such as banning books, independent journalism, etc.) - whether people circumvent it using potentially illegal means (VPN in thi…

You're missing the point of my comment, and the parent comment. The parent comment isn't talking about how the GFW is a consequence of an authoritarian government, it's talking about how he wasn't aware people could get around it.

Where I'm pointing out that this kind of unawareness is quite common, and until you've actually been to China, or have lived there, you'll have a totally different picture painted by the media. (This really goes for all countries)

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#382

Post by spectramax »

woutr_be wrote: post #381
spectramax wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an absurd reasoning. Just because people have circumvented the Great Fire Wall has no bearing on what the parent comment is talking about - GFW is the consequence of the evil things an authoritarian government is capable of doing (amongst other freedom of speech and press issues such as banning books, independent journalism, etc.) - whether people circumvent it using potentially illegal means (VPN in thi…

You're missing the point of my comment, and the parent comment. The parent comment isn't talking about how the GFW is a consequence of an authoritarian government, it's talking about how he wasn't aware people could get around it. Where I'm pointing out that this kind of unawareness is quite common, and until you've actually been to China, or have lived there, you'll have a totally different picture painted by the me…

It is downplaying authoritarian rule by saying that they've made is easy for people to bypass it and as you said, many people live their lives "normally" in China. The parent clarifies this by reaffirming the core subject, i.e. quoting - "Let's be clear. Authoritarianism is not culture; it is an evil political ideology that the people of China are subjected to."

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#383

Post by spectramax »

powerapple wrote: post #379
spectramax wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an absurd reasoning. Just because people have circumvented the Great Fire Wall has no bearing on what the parent comment is talking about - GFW is the consequence of the evil things an authoritarian government is capable of doing (amongst other freedom of speech and press issues such as banning books, independent journalism, etc.) - whether people circumvent it using potentially illegal means (VPN in thi…

it is not absurd reasoning. Source: being Chinese

What you are agreeing to is that it is OK for a government to arbitrarily censor information to the public as long as it is possible for the people to bypass it - this is absolutely and utterly absurd. Please provide some additional color as to why you think otherwise.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#384

Post by woutr_be »

spectramax wrote: post #382
woutr_be wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point of my comment, and the parent comment. The parent comment isn't talking about how the GFW is a consequence of an authoritarian government, it's talking about how he wasn't aware people could get around it. Where I'm pointing out that this kind of unawareness is quite common, and until you've actually been to China, or have lived there, you'll have a totally different picture painted by the me…

It is downplaying authoritarian rule by saying that they've made is easy for people to bypass it and as you said, many people live their lives "normally" in China. The parent clarifies this by reaffirming the core subject, i.e. quoting - "Let's be clear. Authoritarianism is not culture; it is an evil political ideology that the people of China are subjected to."

You're turning this into a political discussion for the sake of discussing politics and pushing your opinion. Nobody is downplaying authoritarian rule, merely pointing out how unaware people are about other people living in different countries. You could take the exact same comment, change Wikipedia and China to something else, and I could make the same argument that I've made before; that until you actually live in a country, and talk to the people, you'll never be fully aware of how things are. Wether it be government imposed restrictions (which, let's be honest, all of us are subject to), or cultural differences, if you only use the media to build your view of a country, you'll almost always be wrong.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#385

Post by rqs »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #294
rqs wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "lose face" you mean display of weakness, then you probably right. The government don't actually care about face here, they only care about outcome. In mainland, people sees the government as the ruler. They are not there to serve you, they are there to manage you. They never make mistake, and you must follow their lead. The government needs Hongkong, and hey need Hongkong under control, just like the rest of C…

> In mainland, people sees the government as the ruler. They are not there to serve you, they are there to manage you. They never make mistake, and you must follow their lead. Mostly right, but there is no sentiment on the mainland that the government never makes mistakes. Quite the opposite.

Well, that "never make mistake" is in a sense, like "I'm right, you're the one who did it wrong", or "Yes it's bad, but it's necessary, there is no other way".

I personally believe it's the root of China's domestic problem.

Our government never fully apologize for their own mistakes (Sometime they did a little, but they always trying to shift their responsibility away. The word here is "Damage control"), possibly because they don't want to show their weakness and handle the consequence. And that gives them a hypocrite vibe.

If somebody never going to take responsibility, then that somebody will not be trusted. Because people is clever, they will eventually figure out who is honest, and who is not.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#386

Post by spyckie2 »

xster wrote: post #341
spyckie2 wrote: post #19

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The pe…

This is a great point. Also thanks for being neutral on this topic, especially given how hard it is to do so on Hacker News these days on this topic. I'm typically highly critical of America but I think Asian cultures have a lot to learn from the US resolution of the civil war and general conflict resolution between parties of unequal power. One can easily reference the uneasy outcomes of Asian civil wars that didn't…

I really like this kind of thinking, it's where my brain is heading currently.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time or skill in weeding through historical facts and theory/storytelling to know if the "agricultural economy informs cultural values" hypothesis is true.

My theory right now is more on income being a much stronger determining factor of culture than realized. A lot of specifically "Asian", "Indian" or "Western" values are actually just a reflection of income levels more than anything else, and many cultural norms will disappear when income levels equalized (like, the Asian attitude towards luxury goods or smoking).

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#387

Post by spyckie2 »

spacehunt wrote: post #312
spyckie2 wrote: post #19

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The pe…

> I wish the culture would be more willing to engage in conflict resolution type conversation and learn how to do it. It's rather difficult to engage in conflict resolution when the other side refused to listen for at least the past 22 years... I do agree with you, but it takes two to tango.

Yes it does take two to tango. When both sides come from the underlying culture hard to blame one side or the other or even suggest solutions.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#388

Post by seppin »

skrebbel wrote: post #211
theklub wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway just happens to have a ton of oil money and a tiny population, whenever they get mentioned as an example for the rest of the world I can't help but laugh.

You're responding to the words "Norway or Sweden". Sweden doesn't have a ton of oil money.

It's still small and affluent, and therefore not a good place to make an x to y comparison.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#389

Post by seppin »

xster wrote: post #343
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have some friends from mainland, currently staying in HK, who sincerely believe the general public is too naive to be allowed to make any decision. With the right amount of conditioning, people can be led to believe in anything even if it is contrarian to their well-being. One can see grounds for arguing this in recent history, and not just in Hong Kong. But, to paraphrase C. S. Lewis: "Some say that the public i…

It's also a rather disingenuous to treat this like some sort of novel idea or some authoritarian ploy. Plato has been arguing that if you don't select your surgeon or carpenter based on that person's popularity in making public promises, why do you do so for statecraft?

> Plato has been arguing that if you don't select your surgeon or carpenter based on that person's popularity in making public promises, why do you do so for statecraft?

Politicians are elected by their promises, reelected by their performance. Also, there is no objective "skill" a politician can hold to be "good" like a surgeon or carpenter, your analogy breaks down completely.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#390

Post by seppin »

empath75 wrote: post #158
xkgt wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

//Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the Chinese culture. This is exactly a regurgitation of the propaganda by CCP. They blamed western influence, education and cultural whitewashing of HK Chinese as the reason for the current protests and their citizens believe it sincerely. They conveniently overlook the crux of the protest, which is to ask for universal suffrage. Even for a w…

After the 2016 election I almost feel the same about letting the public vote.

If the US system was more democratic, not less, it would have avoided the current regime. (no electoral college)
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