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US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

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Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#381

Post by [deleted] »

DonHopkins wrote: post #360
starsinspace wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it worked on Star Trek. IIRC the official explanation from the makers of Star Trek is that the displays look like simple touch screens, but they are actually overlaid with structured force fields, so for the users it feels like a physical button press.

I saw a touch screen for controlling AV equipment at Sun decades ago that had a single solenoid underneath the glass that could thunk to provide tactile feedback as you pressed buttons and dragged sliders.

[deleted]

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#382

Post by Aser »

MisterTea wrote: post #224
Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

Well, it worked on Star Trek. Then again, that was addressed in a Voyager episode when Tom Paris designs the helm in their new runabout with old fashioned buttons and switches because he wanted to actually feel the controls much to Tuvok's dismay. Though, on a serious note, I work in industrial automation and user interfaces, aka HMI's have been touch oriented for quite some time. It was and still is common to see gr…

I totally agree that a combination of physical controls and touchscreen is the way to go. However there are ways to improve the design for touchscreen. Virtual knobs in my experience are pretty difficult to use on a screen, however sliders work reasonably well in their place.

Most industrial touchscreens I've seen are resistive which makes them much more difficult to use, especially for dragging motions, so that may be compounding the problem. Capacitive screens are generally much easier to use.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#383

Post by Shivetya »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31
mhandley wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday I was driving back from Scotland to England, doing 70ish, when we ran into a really heavy thunderstorm. Went from good visibility to almost zero in seconds, and the only thing I could properly see was the crash barrier alongside the lane. I found myself desperately trying to see where the road was, simultaneously trying not to get rear-ended as I slowed up, switch on the rear fog lamps and hazards, max wipe…

Honest question: Why don't modern cars yet monitor humidity in and outside the car and make the correct decisions to keep your windows clear? Why are we focusing on self-driving cars while our cars are too dumb to do this much on their own?

they do but people resort to hyperbole all the time to justify their hatred of touch screen interfaces or just interfaces they do not like.

there are bad touch screen systems and there are good ones. just as there are badly laid out physical controls and good ones.

even muscle memory works with touch screens, to say otherwise is just a lie. however the biggest oversight people tend to ignore is, how little they actually interact with controls of their car other than the turn signals and such. Most modern cars have full climate controls which does include humidity and such, many have automatic lights and wipers, and some go as far as doing the driving.

nineteen to twenty four buttons on steering wheel is just fine and intuitive to some just like the same number on a center console yet these same people will complain about the simplicity of a properly design touch UI and fewer physical buttons as being too complex.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#384

Post by dsego »

Aser wrote: post #382
MisterTea wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it worked on Star Trek. Then again, that was addressed in a Voyager episode when Tom Paris designs the helm in their new runabout with old fashioned buttons and switches because he wanted to actually feel the controls much to Tuvok's dismay. Though, on a serious note, I work in industrial automation and user interfaces, aka HMI's have been touch oriented for quite some time. It was and still is common to see gr…

I totally agree that a combination of physical controls and touchscreen is the way to go. However there are ways to improve the design for touchscreen. Virtual knobs in my experience are pretty difficult to use on a screen, however sliders work reasonably well in their place. Most industrial touchscreens I've seen are resistive which makes them much more difficult to use, especially for dragging motions, so that may…

I would love to see ghost touches messing up the industrial touchscreen and wreaking havoc on the machinery.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#385

Post by the_seraphim »

dsego wrote: post #384
Aser wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree that a combination of physical controls and touchscreen is the way to go. However there are ways to improve the design for touchscreen. Virtual knobs in my experience are pretty difficult to use on a screen, however sliders work reasonably well in their place. Most industrial touchscreens I've seen are resistive which makes them much more difficult to use, especially for dragging motions, so that may…

I would love to see ghost touches messing up the industrial touchscreen and wreaking havoc on the machinery.

or firing missiles on a friendly ship on a US destroyer...

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#386

Post by amiga-workbench »

TomK32 wrote: post #352
Izkata wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Star Trek's bridge controls can be reconfigured, but there's a standard static configuration that doesn't change while they're in use. This is also referenced at a different point in Voyager when Tuvok is annoyed by how Tom Paris uses a nonstandard configuration. So that at least reduces the need for constant visual contact.

It's it true that the whole bridge section can be separated and replaced from the saucer, which of course can also be separated from that thing with the engines?

The bridge modules can be fairly easily swapped out in drydock, but I don't believe that can be done while underway.

The Galaxy class was the first class of ship with a saucer separation system that could be re-attached while in flight. I believe the Constitution class did have the ability to separate its saucer, but that was accomplished with explosive bolts and it couldn't re-attach without being in drydock.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#387

Post by amiga-workbench »

Izkata wrote: post #230
MisterTea wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it worked on Star Trek. Then again, that was addressed in a Voyager episode when Tom Paris designs the helm in their new runabout with old fashioned buttons and switches because he wanted to actually feel the controls much to Tuvok's dismay. Though, on a serious note, I work in industrial automation and user interfaces, aka HMI's have been touch oriented for quite some time. It was and still is common to see gr…

Star Trek's bridge controls can be reconfigured, but there's a standard static configuration that doesn't change while they're in use. This is also referenced at a different point in Voyager when Tuvok is annoyed by how Tom Paris uses a nonstandard configuration. So that at least reduces the need for constant visual contact.

Also in theory controls for any system can be transferred to any console on the ship, I can think of one episode where Seven transferred helm, tactical and ops down to an engineering console.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#388

Post by Tharkun »

ddingus wrote: post #257
beached_whale wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume, that actions like turning/twisting do not work well on touch screens. you can do sliders but for somethings that may not give the correct control. I can probably turn a knob at finer increments than I can slide my finger on the screen.

It is all about haptic feedback, and low latency between action and outcome. You can twist virtually with good precision. But, what is much harder is the feel, state of the knob, particularly when it is released and then gripped again. Mechanically, the structure of the knob can take some energy input, and it serves as a mechanical pivot, or fulcrum, depending on how people use a knob. Without all those physical thin…

> You can twist virtually with good precision. But, what is much harder is the feel..

This is especially true in environments where gloves are worn.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#389

Post by neuronic »

bigiain wrote: post #279
Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

> Has nobody researched this before spending a few hundred million dollars? Of _course_ they did. But nobody listens to the UX/HCI researchers and academics, when the touchscreen vendor's sales team are inviting them to fully catered lunches on a tropical golf course... Business as usual.

> Business as usual.

You could replace that with the more general "Humans as usual."

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#390

Post by animal531 »

amiga-workbench wrote: post #386
TomK32 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's it true that the whole bridge section can be separated and replaced from the saucer, which of course can also be separated from that thing with the engines?

The bridge modules can be fairly easily swapped out in drydock, but I don't believe that can be done while underway. The Galaxy class was the first class of ship with a saucer separation system that could be re-attached while in flight. I believe the Constitution class did have the ability to separate its saucer, but that was accomplished with explosive bolts and it couldn't re-attach without being in drydock.

Right, before they mainly used it as an escape vehicle in case of warp nacelle or containment issues.
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