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Google Is Eating Our Mail

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Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#381

Post by russh »

tankenmate wrote: post #379
dingus wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

Normally I wouldn't +1 a message because it doesn't really seem to add much to the message. But in this case I will (even though it might earn me ire from some). If I could highlight the parent in bold I would. I've run mail servers since the mid 90's and the experience above exactly mirrors my experience. And my takeaway is the same, GMail just doesn't seem to care. I understand that GMail can't give away too much i…

Add me to the "I've run mail servers since the mid 90's and the experience above exactly mirrors my experience." list.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#382

Post by macintux »

drstewart wrote: post #288
ausjke wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google the giant will only bend when lawsuit happens. Assuming Google's AI put an urgent email to spam by mistake and made a huge loss to some party, Google should be immediately sued, probably by class action, only then it will respect small and well-behaved players like the original post here. Whenever I read post like this, I recall its once popular(now withdrawn) slogan "don't be evil".

Email is not an appropriate method of communication for highly urgent, impactful, and time-sensitive messages. So the party should sue themselves for negligence.

There are frequently situations where the email is very impactful to the recipient, much less so to the sender.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#383

Post by _eht »

dingus wrote: post #299
prlambert wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

I will chime and validate this experience. You will not fully understand or realize the hostility google has towards open email unless you have working experience with email protocols. This is by design.

It is my belief that this is intentional and I would love to be corrected if it’s not.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#384

Post by macinjosh »

prlambert wrote: post #183
reaperducer wrote: post #8

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

Keep trying to make yourself feel better. The company you work for is ruining the internet which means you are complicit in just that. Perhaps you could find something more constructive to do with your life.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#385

Post by pickdenis »

majkinetor wrote: post #250
jacobolus wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. Can you bring back the old web UI? I experience obnoxious interaction and interface bugs in the new one on an hourly basis, it has horrendous interaction latency for many operations that used to be snappy, it looks worse, and has basically nothing new I want. Actually, can you bring back the Gmail of like 10 years ago? Basically every change since then ha…

New UI really makes Gmail barely usable, basically on any kind of connection. Since it came into being, I avoid checking gmail because its unbearably slow and buggy. I have 20 years of XP in this industry and build large gov services, and I am astonished that Google allows itself such a failure. If you want, I will make a gif of Gmail unresponsiveness in default Chrome browser on 50MB connection - taking more then a…

Just use the "basic HTML" view. When the new design is loading, there will be a link at the bottom to click to use basic HTML, and then there will be a button to set it as default. I use this and have (almost) zero complaints. It is an excellent mail client.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#386

Post by torqueTorrent »

sctb wrote: post #220
torqueTorrent wrote: post #47

Companies like this give whores a bad name.

Please stop posting unsubstantively. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'll do you one better! In the spirit of the pre-commercialized, pre-monopolized and pre-whored-out Internet, and the extent to which freedom dies with a wimper on Web 2.0, I'll stop posting on HN entirely!

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#387

Post by sonnyblarney »

prlambert wrote: post #183
reaperducer wrote: post #8

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

Google does not have incentive to fix this, because they can simply not fix it, and get along just fine.

That's the point.

It doesn't have to be conscious dereliction, it can just be 'big, dumb bureaucracy'. Interestingly, operational ineffectiveness can happen within well run organizations, particularly if there's no poignant reasons to change.

These kinds of things tend to happen when one part of the organization is mining Oil or Gold and throwing vast surpluses around the rest of the camp.

You have $100 Billion dollars to fix the problem - a hoard of the best and most highly paid talent on planet earth.

So fix it.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#388

Post by cpeterso »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #322
dingus wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

I've had gmail send the following to the spam folder: - Legitimate class action notices related to Amazon purchases. - Email coming from addresses to which I had already sent email. (!) - Email from my landlord. - Email coming from Google itself. Based on the contents of my spam folder, which I have to check fairly often because of the extreme overaggressiveness, I would be vastly better off if nothing ever got filte…

Your comment motivated me to check my Gmail spam folder and 10% (3 out of 30) were false positives, two of which were pretty important. :(

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#389

Post by fgonzag »

lucb1e wrote: post #118
macspoofing wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even after all that, there's some chance that an email from my server will be marked as insecure/spam Don't I know it. This happened to us but not with Google. We use Exchange Online (Office365) and have DKIM, SPF headers configured. At some point our emails stopped being received by bell and cox emails addresses ... sporadically but sometimes for days at a time. It turned out that the spam filter provider (used by…

> we use Office365 and don't have this issue I'm not surprised Microsoft's IP range is known by google. Sending from sendgrid, mailchimp, and a few others that send a lot of mail also works. It's when a new player wants to get in the market (or god forbid, an individual with their own nerdy server) where the trouble arises.

Postmark requires a minimum of 50K emails a month for a dedicated IP address, and they state that minimum is for quality reasons. You won't get a good enough reputation on your IP without it.

That should give people an estimate of the required volume to get decent delivirability rates to big providers.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#390

Post by type0 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #322
dingus wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

I've had gmail send the following to the spam folder: - Legitimate class action notices related to Amazon purchases. - Email coming from addresses to which I had already sent email. (!) - Email from my landlord. - Email coming from Google itself. Based on the contents of my spam folder, which I have to check fairly often because of the extreme overaggressiveness, I would be vastly better off if nothing ever got filte…

About accountability, this gmail thing vaguely reminds me about "The Drop" situation on the mobile phone network https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCOCKS5AJI8
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