Live data from Hacker News

Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

triplebyte.com

381–390 of 540 posts

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#381

Aside from all the things mentioned in the article, this also seems like a fairly predictable application of Goodhart's Law: "Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes." Once upon a time, skill at doing these sorts of problems might have correlated (imperfectly) with general aptitude as a programmer or software engineer. But the very act of trying t…

I'm not sure if HackerRank has updated itself recently, but the last time I poked my head in there (years ago), all the answers were in the "Talk about this challenge" section. You'd just go in there and copy paste the code in, maybe change the variable names/order a bit. Ever since I learned that, it's never been that 'wowzers' for me.

Isn't the whole point of the challenge to figure out how to do the problem? What you say is literally just copy/pasting others' answers. Is that not looked down on?

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m sorry but you cannot do what you are claiming. But I have. Not in the specific context of a job interview, but I have absolutely convinced technical experts that my level of expertise in a field is above my actual level of expertise. Ironically, if this were a technical interview, I'd fail it, not because I lack the skills to convince technical experts of my non-existent abilities, but because you don't find me…

> “But without context, you can't effectively do that.” This is simply false. You don’t need context to understand if the breakdown of a technical problem into constituent trade-offs was appropriate or not — by definition that very breakdown into constituent technical details is the context. > “investigating that was someone else's responsibility" This just confirms to me that you are not correct in asserting people…

>This is simply false. You don’t need context to understand if the breakdown of a technical problem into constituent trade-offs was appropriate or not — by definition that very breakdown into constituent technical details is the context.

I mean, yes you do. Context tells you which decisions are important. You're asking for the context you need to assess someone's technical competency from the person whose technical competency you're attempting to assess. They have every incentive to lie, mislead, or stretch the truth to make the context they give you highlight their skills more than the real context did. And no, you can't verify that.

>If someone tells me something like that, I’ll ask them what did that other person find when they investigated? If you say anything like, “I don’t know; that was their job not mine,” then you’ve lost credibility because you didn’t put that other person’s conclusions through strong skepticism until you were satisfied you knew the details well enough that you could own or support them if you had to. That is exactly the sort of thing that indicates bullshitting.

But now you're punishing someone for organizational things possibly beyond their control. If my job was to build a thing that made use of some blackbox algorithm, and John developed the algorithm, why should I put the algorithm under strong skepticism, perhaps that's how things work in your workplace, but there's no clear reason that mine work the same way. This is just a bias against people whose development practices aren't the same as yours.

>This approach is far less biased or subjective than appraising “how a candidate thinks” while they solve tricky puzzles in a foreign environment with unrealistic time pressure.

Except that, as I've literally just proven, you've failed to verify the authenticity of me because you've wrongly concluded that I'm not authentic. This comment thread exactly demonstrates just how you can fail to identify a good candidate with this method because if you dislike what they're saying, you'll unconsciously convert that to them being less authentic.

So again, either you take the candidate at face value in a situation where they have every incentive to lie to you, or you attempt to verify their authenticity, at which point that analysis is subject to a multitude of biases that have nothing to do with the candidates skill level.

You've just demonstrated this perfectly.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#383
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see this sentence being an interesting Rorschach test. Either you think it’s quite sensible or utterly absurd. My own brain was even flip-flopping around for a bit before coming down on the utterly absurd side. I think the maybe reasonable counter-argument against your sentence would be that while you personally do not have to value something like raising kids above your work, others very well might and do and…

If work is everything, shouldn't we set aside some time to raise the next generation of workers? Working all the time is so defeating it even defeats the amount of work being done 30 years from now.

> If work is everything, shouldn't we set aside some time to raise the next generation of workers?

I don't think work per se is everything. But working on world-changing things is.

At least concerning the situation in Germany, where there is compulsary school with a compulsary curriculum (vulgo: 18-19 years of brainwashing), I am working a lot time in the evening on an alternative curriculum (currently focusing on computer science topics since this is something I am hopefully knowledgable about) that enables people to deprogram themselves from this kind of brainwashing to enable them to develop their intellectual potential so that they can begin to work on world-changing things. A lot of highly gifted people already asked me multiple times when they can finally read the first text of my planned series (they are really eager for it) - unluckily there is still so much to do even on the first text.

So the first thing that we should solve is to prepare a curriculum that does not completely brainwash our children. Only when this problem is solved, we can begin to think about how we can set aside some time for them.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or because they built some well-known cool thing What, like homebrew? :)

> What, like homebrew? :) Context for everybody else: https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?lang=en TL;DR: author of Homebrew interviews at Google, but doesn't get hired because he couldn't/wouldn't invert a binary tree on a whiteboard.

Wow, this is an incredible answer from Max on Quora as well: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin...

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#385
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe for a second it requires "natural aptitude" to program. The problem is any programming curriculum starts with a text editor open. If a developer-to-be doesn't understand the framing context of what they are doing they are being dropped in a lake with no sense of direction. Its why all the "naturals" started as geeks who played with computers from a young age. You learned about the environment you woul…

We convinced our parents to buy a computer because it would help our education when all we really wanted one for was playing computer games. Joke was on us though, because playing computer games at the time usually involved a lot of putzing around and figuring out how stuff worked, ultimately teaching us marketable skills.

I'm envious because my parents heavily restricted my computer use thinking it'd rot my brain or I'd get r*ped. They wanted me reading books, to become a lawyer or a doctor. I always had an affinity for technology. My folks meant well but I think not watering that seed has me in the middle of this lost life.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a naval officer in a prior life, and my current manager loves that I get the job done, whatever it is, without complaint. I'm pretty much the opposite of what you think, so if my desire to study for the algorithm interview is your litmus test for that, kinda proves my point. Not everyone that would be good for Google has a burning desire to work for Google. Google might want to consider that.

To make it clear, I absolutely hate coding interviews that makes candidate lose so much time restudying. I think having some critical-thinking is absolutely needed and way too many engineers lack some (especially those swallowed into FANGs) What I described on my previous post is a credible explanation that my group of engineer friends came up with on why all the FANG companies pursue those heavy memorization algorit…

> my group of engineer friends came up with on why all the FANG companies pursue those heavy memorization algorithmic interviews

I think the most likely explanation is that "elite" of CS grads usually do competitions like ACM ICPC and olympiads, which are full of problems like those watered-down interview questions. As there is no real authority on what makes a developer good, but there was a measurable outcome of those programming competitions, leading to high status and pride displayed by winners/participants, it was simply taken from there and dumbed down to fit into interviews. Some top colleges even have special prep courses for those competitions and comparing to them FANG interviews are super trivial.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#387

Google recruiters call me a lot. I think I'd do a good if not stellar job working there. I've passed multiple FAANG interviews and been very successful as a senior developer. In my email I have an "interview prep packet" from them that essentially tells me to brush up on algorithms and read Cracking the Coding Interview to prepare for their interview process. I'm fairly happy in my job. If they offered more money or…

What I find weird is why does anybody want to work at Google? I use their tools all the time at work. If you go to console.cloud.google.com... I mean... Wow. Just yesterday I was trying to find the logging for our cloud endpoints on Stackdriver. They should use that as their interview question ;-)

And this is the big thing I've noticed about many Google apps (especially dev tools): they are all incredibly (for want of a better word) hacky. And the documentation... while I can very much appreciate that they are serious about it and work very hard, it's a huge mishmash of marketing speak ("It washes your socks and makes dinner for you!") with the crucial information you need hidden away in secret corners. I literally have to use Google the search engine to navigate any of the documentation.

I don't mean to be so negative. It's not that it's so terrible in reality, it's just that it's not anything particularly great. I literally can't think of a single offering they have that I would aspire towards. There are lots of smaller, hungrier companies making much better products. And by extension, I think if you work at those smaller, hungrier companies you have a better chance of learning more, becoming a better developer and even being happier with your job.

So the thing is, unless I'm alone in my assessment, I think the main things people are looking for from a job at Google are status and money. Additionally, I think a lot of young people believe that talented developers mostly work at famous companies. In my experience, this is the opposite. Back when Microsoft was the powerhouse, I knew a lot of MS developers. Some were amazing. Most were average (as you might expect when a company is hiring thousands upon thousands of developers). However, you had a much better chance of actually working with someone amazing if you got a job at a small shop. I still think this is true.

Personally, I don't complain about the "You have to be this clever to ride" interviews. Yes, they self select for people who are not like me (bulldogs that work away obsessively at problems until they are solved without using any particular magic insight). Yes, it means that I'm unlikely to get paid at the very, very top of the payscale (heck, if I wanted to get paid more, I would have been a lawyer -- I want to write code). It just means that it's that much easier for me to find companies that are a good fit for me. I don't really see a problems with that.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#388

Google recruiters call me a lot. I think I'd do a good if not stellar job working there. I've passed multiple FAANG interviews and been very successful as a senior developer. In my email I have an "interview prep packet" from them that essentially tells me to brush up on algorithms and read Cracking the Coding Interview to prepare for their interview process. I'm fairly happy in my job. If they offered more money or…

> I've made a career fixing a ton of horribly shitty, inefficient code that's been produced exclusively by people who pass these interviews.

I love this comment.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#389

The less talked about absurdity is that successfully passing programming interviews is a skill itself. It's especially absurd because the time I spend developing that skill is less time spent developing skills and knowledge more directly relevant to my job. Yet, programming interview skill is more relevant to progressing my career. edit: now if you'll excuse me, I need to do some dynamic programming problems.

I've interviewed tons of engineers that ace the interview and you have no choice but to pass but you see later on writing abysmal code. The problem is that design, quality, and maintainability are not valued. As a result, you end up with extremely mediocre "hacky" engineers at larger companies that can spit out tons of valid code but lead to a tangled mess shortly thereafter. Worse, there's this huge emphasis on "big…

I myself too have witnessed a similar thing but with not-so-algorithmic-people. I think it all comes down to the company culture and the person actually being able to let go of their ego and improve their programming skills. It is similar to a senior developer who never learned to properly program and because of hir position is incapable of seeing faults in their code. Once you've gotten too accustomed to shitty code, it's hard to change your style which is understandable.

Probably biggest influence on this I think is the culture, if nobody tells you that your code is shit (in a kind way) you'll never learn better. But then again, some people are so hard-headed and full of themselves that they get defensive and never actually admit their faults. Though giving and receiving feedback is not easy, can give you an identity crisis once you realize you've been doing something wrong for years.

And then you have a bunch of Ivy League graduates who have spent years learning algorithms and are burning to use them but there's no actual problems that really need them.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#390

Google recruiters call me a lot. I think I'd do a good if not stellar job working there. I've passed multiple FAANG interviews and been very successful as a senior developer. In my email I have an "interview prep packet" from them that essentially tells me to brush up on algorithms and read Cracking the Coding Interview to prepare for their interview process. I'm fairly happy in my job. If they offered more money or…

What I find weird is why does anybody want to work at Google? I use their tools all the time at work. If you go to console.cloud.google.com... I mean... Wow. Just yesterday I was trying to find the logging for our cloud endpoints on Stackdriver. They should use that as their interview question ;-) And this is the big thing I've noticed about many Google apps (especially dev tools): they are all incredibly (for want o…

Simple answer: Money + Prestige + Job security + Resume
Post reply on HN