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IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

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Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, MENSA membership does not correlate with intellectual elites in any research field It's mostly because MENSA membership is interesting for very small fraction of intelligent people. If everyone applied to mensa, 150 mln people would get in while only less than 150 thousand are actually in mensa. Even if every member of intelectual elite was above mensa threshold only 1 in 1000 would be in mensa. It's h…

Yeah, you actually have to investigate two things 1) why people desire to actually become a member of Mensa in the first place 2) the population of people who are eligible for membership (2% of the whole population) yet are not members. On cursory inspection it would seem if you just talked about the top 2% of the distribution you would likely get a different answer than if you just talked about the people who felt t…

I "joined" the mensa shortly after I finished college (masters degree), moved in with my girlfriend and started freelancing. I always thought of myself as having high IQ but I was never formally tested before. I felt that I will no longer be intelectually challenged in my daily life anymore and I will never know if I'm intelligent or not. My aunt was recenly getting into police force and she had IQ test as a part of her recruitment. She had a book of IQ tests I borrowed and went through, in preparation of mensa exam. Mensa test was very easy. There was a lot of time. I solved every question then double checked every question, then triple checked, then finished with half an hour left. I made no mistakes. I left the test with the opinion that every programmer should do it because it's easy morale boost and if you ever done anything with bitwise operations and frame by frame animation, right solutions for some of the questions will be so easy for you.

Results came, I made no mistakes. I got it. Got my plastic membership card (with mistakes on it), email address, mailing list membership and yearly subscription for amateurish mensa paper mag sent to wrong address (same mistake as on the plastic card).

Mag was random (somehow it was finding way to me despite the wrong address), mailing list was random. I did not pay membership fee for second year and that was pretty much it.

I never sought any connection with my "fellow mensans" and felt no connection to them. I came just for the test to validate myself.

My mensa membership was useful for me once. After few years my gf started treating me like an idiot because I didn't immediately knew what she had in mind when she was saying something and was infuriated when I asked questions trying to figure it out.

I said something to the effect "You are treating me like an idiot, when I know for a fact that I'm not one. If I didn't know, at this point I'd be devastated and convinced by your behavior that I am, so please stop behaving like that." ... and she stopped.

She was later diagnosed with brain tumor, so her behavior might have been influenced by that and I don't know if she would be able to stop herself without solid evidence in the form of my mensa membership.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#383
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've spent any amount of time in education (or you have any faith in the data), then it is patently obvious that there is indeed a set of "un-smart" kids. We can quibble about how big that group is, but they definitely exist. It's not their fault, they just got a bad set of numbers in the polygenetic lottery or were subjected to environmental stresses that caused lasting damage. Pretending that they're smart is…

I received the label of very high IQ-er early on. Yet, I don’t believe that I’m all that smart. I just spend a lot of time in my head thinking about shit. Oh, and I enjoy solving puzzles. On the other hand, many of my friends are average IQ-ers, and a few are even below average IQ-ers. Yet, I consider some of them to be very smart, and in some ways smarter than high IQ-ers, especially in niche areas (comedy, expressi…

Those areas you mentioned are all skills, where intelligence helps, but practice is far more important. And if your situation is like mine, then those friends probably spend way more time than you practicing those skills.

Instead of analyzing a joke / expression / reaction to death, weighting the subtle differences between synonyms, they probably tried a bunch of times and saw what stuck.

Don't confuse intelligence with experience.

ps. It took me about an hour to write this comment and it isn't any better for it. I probably could've written a dozen in the same time and become much better at expressing my thoughts instead.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often wondered about this, because I can't see how simple categorisation across 4 axis can be either scientific or unscientific. It's just categorisation, it doesn't make predictions. I enjoy reading the different type descriptions, unlike horoscopes (which are basically barnum phrases) they do seem to describe me with a high degree of accuracy. Then again, I stopped at this point, and never dived deeper into al…

>It's just categorisation, it doesn't make predictions. If it doesn't make predictions, it isn't science. The Big Five model of personality is reasonably scientific, because it has some predictive power. If you give someone a standardised test to measure their Big Five traits, you can make better-than-chance predictions about their behaviour in the real world. If they're high on openness to experience, they're more l…

> If it doesn't make predictions, it isn't science.

This was kind of my point, if it's not science, criticising it as unscientific doesn't seem to be a particularly meaningful activity.

One has to consider how MBTI is used by people in the real world, I've come across two scenarios in my own life:

1) A business does it during some form of team day or off-site. The main purpose is to highlight that people think/operate in different ways and have different value, and an effective team is sensitive to this and works within it rather than trying to fight it. My comment is that the _specifics_ are kind of irrelevant, as long as the message that people are different is communicated effectively.

2) People use it in their personal lives as a form of reassurance, they've found something that they feel describes themselves and perhaps is useful in explaining themselves to others. This won't happen for the people who are close to the centre of the various axis, because they'll feel that more than one of the "types" could apply to them. But for the people who are closer to the extremes (like myself) find them to be rather accurate. And we're the people who'll find value in it. So my comment here is simply that if someone thinks their MBTI type is meaningful, it probably is -- because for the purposes they care about (how do I explain myself to others, or similar), it actually is pretty helpful.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you actually have to investigate two things 1) why people desire to actually become a member of Mensa in the first place 2) the population of people who are eligible for membership (2% of the whole population) yet are not members. On cursory inspection it would seem if you just talked about the top 2% of the distribution you would likely get a different answer than if you just talked about the people who felt t…

I "joined" the mensa shortly after I finished college (masters degree), moved in with my girlfriend and started freelancing. I always thought of myself as having high IQ but I was never formally tested before. I felt that I will no longer be intelectually challenged in my daily life anymore and I will never know if I'm intelligent or not. My aunt was recenly getting into police force and she had IQ test as a part of…

That is a mildly fascinating story.

The fact you had some frame of reference you could use to reason about who was likely right or wrong in the given situation is interesting. I don't need an IQ test or to join MENSA to figure that out but it did take reading about about 10 or so books on politics, philosophy and psychology to figure out "everyones thought process is extremely busted, some more so than others".

Otherwise how the hell do you even get that frame of reference?

People in general have very little understanding how they're more or less a murderous political machine running a large set of very low resolution models on garbage in, garbage out.

If you don't understand that then you have very little recourse on breaking out of an unhelpful program or loop you might be stuck in. Even if you know that, it's still very challenging to break out sometimes.

I'm thinking to get an IQ test lately out of curiosity. Ive known some people personally who I reckon I just can't touch intellectually... like I can feel the difference when I talk to them. So, I've never really thought I was highly intelligent, but I'm starting to get the feeling perhaps I'm not smack bang in the middle of the distribution either. Deeply curious to find out.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original tweetstorm and this post aim to show something very specific, namely that IQ misses the mark as a measure of intelligence the further away from IQ 70 one ventures. In other words, stupid is stupid, but smart seems to come in many flavors. The title of the article itself points to this fact, as the word "largely" is inserted. Nassim Nicholas Taleb himself can see the value at the lower levels. If the goal…

The frustrating thing from the perspective of an individual differences researcher is that Taleb is not at all correct about IQ becoming less predictive of performance at higher levels! Studies pretty consistently show that IQ is a valid predictor of performance all the way up the scale, so that, for example, someone with an IQ of 145 is likely to perform (at school, on the job, etc) better than someone with an IQ of…

Yeah I missed this HN; it's in my area of expertise.

I don't mean to be hostile, but I don't know how else to say it: I don't know why or how posts like this, and most of what Taleb posts, get this much attention, because they're so ironically unscientific and poorly written. Taleb doesn't know what he's talking about, he selectively cites research, and makes assertions as if they are citations. The citation you provide is one example; there are scientists (e.g., Lubinski) who have successfully demonstrated over the course of years of research the validity of scores on the upper end of the intelligence distribution. Taleb comes across as an uninformed idiot.

Taleb falls into these common fallacy traps regarding intelligence and individual differences research:

1. Some improper use of intelligence theory historically (e.g., racist, overapplication) doesn't mean the idea of intelligence is invalid or not useful. 2. A trait such as intelligence can be highly but not perfectly stable; environment can contribute to stability and genetic factors can contribute to changes. 3. Measures can be imperfect but still useful and valid, throughout the range. 4. The contribution of other factors to outcomes other than intelligence doesn't mean general intelligence isn't contributing as well. 5. The phenomenon of general intelligence doesn't preclude the existence of more specific ways of describing cognitive abilities (e.g., verbal memory, processing speed, visual mental simulation).

Someone else posted something about how political IQ and individual differences research is. I feel about these topics how I imagine ecologists must feel about global warming research: lots of gish gallop by people who have a political or narcissistic axe to grind.

Another problem is that people want to believe that problems in behavioral sciences can be reduced to really simple black or white positions, or apply analogies from other fields directly without any modification. Yes, you can measure behavioral attributes, but no it's not quite ordinal and not quite ratio, and that's fine. Yes things can be somewhat stable and somewhat not. The list goes on and on.

Finally, there's this narcissistic status-asserting behavior that drives a lot of this. It's like the pecking order in science that goes something like physics > chemistry > biology > behavioral science is driven in part by people feeling the need to assert that they're smarter than people lower in the hierarchy. The problem is that this hierarchy is basically wrong, and driven in part by the system complexity of the fields, but it doesn't stop people like Taleb because he needs someone to bully to make himself look smarter.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#387
Wow lots of people really wrapped up in this whole IQ thing lol. It’s literally a joke, only reason it’s so prevalent these days are because of the racist white supremacist and pseudosciencentist “philosophers” raking in the Youtube money. Can someone point to actual real research where someone literally went around the world and gave IQ test to groups of people ? Also were these test in the people’s native language, how were they chosen etc. I have a hunch (not a biologist or anything like that) that common sense would say if you take any group of people that come from similar environments and administer IQ test the scores would be similar no matter the race, height, sex, etc. (I.e: take middle class college students from different groups and compare. Then take groups of people from poverty stricken backgrounds and compare) Does anyone disagree ? And why?

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#388
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hold on, I'm a lefty - and don't particularly like that brush you're tarring me with. Now before we go on, I do agree with some of your points. The results we observe are driven by many factors and individual choice is one of them. I object to 'positive discrimination' and the like as it's personally unfair. However, I do have that deep troubling feeling that there is bias all over the place. I'll just go with gender…

Believing that all humans are equal and any differences in outcome is the result of discrimination is a caracature of leftist views akin to labelling conservatives "just people out to screw over the poor". My observation is that the biggest chasm between left and right is the burden of proof for discrimination . The left believes discrimination is the basic human condition and one must prove that a decision or proces…

Interesting view I hadn't heard before.

Notably, under the left's view, believing a system is just would require proving a negative.

Is basically 'guilty until proven innocent'; a recipe for eternal identitarian strife; totally different from how we approach structurally similar questions on other topics.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can I do anything but call you ignorant when you say things like "did you somehow miss the complete absence of substance in it?" You're not following HN rules by refusing to address the best form of the argument, and when you break rules like that, it makes it hard to stay civil.

You crashed into this comment thread immediately accusing me of not reading the submission without actually stating an argument. If you do have an argument, feel free to present it.

Again, not about me, it's about the argument, and there's a great one in the article itself, as well as throughout the comments here. Stop focusing on me, start focusing on the arguments. If I'm not making a good argument, why are you replying?

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't bring race into the conversation; you did. Affirmative action is precisely an adjustment of admissions criteria such that ceterus paribus a candidate is more likely to be admitted. Yes, it's based on race, but if it was based on lottery, it would have the same effect: students with lower SAT scores are admitted to schools which otherwise require a certain threshold. That they don't do as well, shows that th…

The article linked (you did actually open that before replying to me, right?) extensively talks about race, and affirmative action is intrinsically linked to it. Also, I don't know if you're ignorant as to what a dog whistle is, or you're being purposefully obtuse, but "affirmative action" is extremely common talking point among actual racists, because it's a politically acceptable way to disparage racial minorities…

The problem with "dog whistles" is that they can literally be seen in anything, and are a shortcut to labelling someone a racist without any proof, and therefore not engaging with their actual arguments.

It's particularly interesting in this case because the youtube link is Thomas Sowell speaking about the negative effects of Affirmative Action and he is a black American, would you say that he is dog whistling for racists?

Now onto the law itself, Affirmative Action is a racist policy as it advantages certain races over others, full stop. Recently asian students have brought a suit against Harvard (https://www.npr.org/2018/11/02/660734399/harvard-discriminat...), for their policies negatively effecting asian Americans. As a society we need to decide if we want to advantage some races over others. In my opinion it makes more sense to advantage people from poor backgrounds then it does based on race, as the black son or daughter of rich parents will have had more opportunities than the poor asian American. If you disagree with that I would love to understand why.

In addition, I fully agree that legacy admissions should be removed.

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