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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#381

Post by scruple »

fzeroracer wrote: post #313
ptero wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to prevent people from arguing for an evil (E) never stops E long term. It should be fought with reason and counter-arguments, not with silencing the speaker. Suppressing the speaker can indicate, especially to those wavering, that there are no reasonable counter-arguments and there must be something true in the message that controlling powers are trying to suppress. There are different modes: I do not have to…

You cannot argue against people that believe an entire race or an entire people should be systematically eradicated. There is no rational argument to be had against them because they specifically argue on an entirely different level. They want you to treat them at equal in the world of debate because that's how their views are legitimized and given power. I find it honestly disturbing that people are more willing to…

How do you reconcile your world view with the story of someone like Daryl Davis, who verifiably contradicts what you think?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#382

Post by creaghpatr »

SllX wrote: post #274
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

Seems we haven’t figured out how to draw the correct distinctions between what are clearly different types of businesses. If Patreon is a gallery or art market or auction house, and Reddit is a Café, what is Cloudflare? Are they a toll road? Private highway? Something else? Likening any of those businesses to the closest brick and mortar equivalent is probably futile, but bear with me a moment. In the real world, bus…

Cloudfare is like the Mafia or the military, you pay them protection fees or face the consequences.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#383

Post by marcosdumay »

monksy wrote: post #89
losvedir wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or Visa likewise today -- it's understood that other people will use the same plastic to pay for things you morally disapprove of, just as they could use cash. But it's positioned as a neutral carrier, and nobody cares (I think). Heh, well I hope so. But that recent NYTimes story[0] about how mass shootings used guns and ammo bought with a credit card makes me unsure about that. I'd have thought using cash vs credi…

I have a huge concern over anyone who is stating that the CCs are to partly to be blamed. Yes, they were used for firearms. Firearms are expensive and plastic (for the most part) is the currency in the US. For me that's flipping the bozo bit for that individual. It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of. It's the mob rule.

> It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of.

Oh, people should really be concerned about fascism. It's just not coming from the groups outed trying to bring it (what should be obvious, outed groups do not succeed).

But there are people pushing hard for individual-erasing collectivism, explicitly labeling people in ethnics belief and sex, and suppressing every unaligned idea to the point where it's not viable for the people that have them to even speak.

(A late edit: I don't think Pathernon is on this group. They did nothing wrong, they just happen to be in a place where no move was a good one.)

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#384

Post by aeternus »

arkades wrote: post #355
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

> The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. This made a lot of sense when I was a kid. Since that time, communication has become incredibly centralized - whether it’s the platform (eg, YT), or the infrastructure to keep it running (eg, Cloudflare.) Today, if one or two private enterprises decide they want to eliminate your voice, you’re effectively barred from the public squ…

I don't think this is anywhere near true. Even without the largest 100 internet companies, it is still orders of magnitude easier to get a message out to a large audience than it has been at any other time throughout history.

You don't need a fancy Cloudflare proxy to get a message out there. A static site is easy to host and there are thousands of sites/services to choose from.

You can still stand on a soapbox, you can post a link on a wide variety of message boards, write an opinion piece for a newspaper, etc.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#385

Post by dpark »

smrtinsert wrote: post #358
coffeemug wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. People keep saying this and repeating it, but as far as I can tell this meme is destructive and wrong. Freedom of speech isn't just a legal assurance that congress shall make no law abridging it. It is also a set of cultural norms rooted deeply in a long lineage of hard won ideas. It is Evelyn Hall's principle "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the de…

This is total crap. That norm was long abandoned. Absolutely no one on the right defends freed of speech as a cultural norm. The modern right uses "freedom of speech" as a proxy to discriminate/marginalize and spread hate speech. Edit:Boohoo, I offended the snowflakes.

> Edit:Boohoo, I offended the snowflakes.

If anyone disagreeing with you is automatically a “snowflake”, you’re the one with a sensitivity problem.

Just something to think about.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#386

Post by notahacker »

ptero wrote: post #204
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

Trying to prevent people from arguing for an evil (E) never stops E long term. It should be fought with reason and counter-arguments, not with silencing the speaker. Suppressing the speaker can indicate, especially to those wavering, that there are no reasonable counter-arguments and there must be something true in the message that controlling powers are trying to suppress. There are different modes: I do not have to…

Trying to prevent people from arguing for an evil works much better when the primary reason they are arguing for said evil is because your platform makes it insanely profitable for them to do so.

"I disapprove of what you say but will do my level best to ensure it's profitable for you and your copycats to keep saying it in a more and more attention-seekingly extreme manner" sounds suspiciously like the net result is society manipulation of a different sort. Ultimately I think private organizations have a right to have the time, effort and money they invest in growing their platform's reach decoupled from the change in the public profile of evil.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#387

Post by darkpuma »

apostacy wrote: post #317
beat wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business itself is inherently amoral (not evil, just lacking any sense of morality one way or another). Businesses don't refuse particular customers out of a sense of social justice - they do it because continuing to service their customers harms their reputation, and thus their business. I know I don't want to do business with businesses that tell me fascism is just "speech", and I'll go to their competitors instead…

Someone like Jordan Paterson is absolutely not like Stormfront. Refusing to support a best selling author and professor because some vocal activists have launched a smear campaign against him is not some sort of proxy for morality. Businesses are doing things because their owners want to punish certain opinions, regardless of how popular they are. Visa and Mastercard are using their monopoly power as payment processo…

As far as I know Patreon haven't booted Jordan Paterson, the article suggests he's breaking his association with Patreon willingly.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#388

Post by austhrow743 »

imron wrote: post #339
beat wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business itself is inherently amoral (not evil, just lacking any sense of morality one way or another). Businesses don't refuse particular customers out of a sense of social justice - they do it because continuing to service their customers harms their reputation, and thus their business. I know I don't want to do business with businesses that tell me fascism is just "speech", and I'll go to their competitors instead…

> Businesses don't refuse particular customers out of a sense of social justice - they do it because continuing to service their customers harms their reputation, and thus their business And yet this case shows the exact opposite, and they are hemorrhaging users and money for it. > I'm saying that it's not good to require business to provide a platform for their hate. The Overton window really has shifted too far if…

Something being a poor business decision in retrospect doesn't mean it was made knowing that it would be a poor business decision.

Patreon fucked up the execution. Reddit has been throwing out more and more undesirables and it's been working out well for them.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#389

Post by krapp »

zepto wrote: post #341
jakelazaroff wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listeners are perfectly free to go elsewhere to hear racist speech — Gab exists, 4chan exists, and there are plenty of smaller sites dedicated to this as well. Insofar as they want to support someone monetarily, no one can prevent them from using Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is failing and if that’s the best option for free speech, it proves that the mainstream actually doesn’t support it.

> Bitcoin is failing and if that’s the best option for free speech, it proves that the mainstream actually doesn’t support it.

Bitcoin is an anarcho-capitalist currency, and the mainstream aren't anarchists. The mainstream doesn't object to it because they object to free speech, they object to it because they like banks with their FDIC insurance and laws.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#390

Post by wsy »

apostacy wrote: post #317
beat wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business itself is inherently amoral (not evil, just lacking any sense of morality one way or another). Businesses don't refuse particular customers out of a sense of social justice - they do it because continuing to service their customers harms their reputation, and thus their business. I know I don't want to do business with businesses that tell me fascism is just "speech", and I'll go to their competitors instead…

Someone like Jordan Paterson is absolutely not like Stormfront. Refusing to support a best selling author and professor because some vocal activists have launched a smear campaign against him is not some sort of proxy for morality. Businesses are doing things because their owners want to punish certain opinions, regardless of how popular they are. Visa and Mastercard are using their monopoly power as payment processo…

Jordan Peterson is not banned by Patreon.
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