Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#381

Post by irrational » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #279

ExBritNStuff wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Elementary school comment rings so true. We have to get my seven year old up at 6:15 to get to school at 7:30. That's if we take him, if he caught the bus he would have to be AT the stop by 6:15. Every day is a battle against exhaustion. On the days that school is delayed due to weather and he can get up naturally at maybe 7:30, he is so much better. He feels better, his attitude is more positive, and he does so…

Why does the school bus pick him up more than an hour before school starts? That seems ridiculous.

Where I grew up the high school was a 45 minute drive away. We would get picked up an hour early so there was a little leeway in case of traffic.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#382

Post by irrational » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

Lordarminius wrote: post #357

dahfizz wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the school bus pick him up more than an hour before school starts? That seems ridiculous.

For this and most questions regarding school schedules, consider the point that the timing is for the convenience of the adults who need to go l get to work / back home / other tasks, not the children. A school system that puts kids first would start by 9am but how would society cope with that ?

Our middle schools start at 9:15am and society copes just fine.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#383

Post by rootusrootus » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

Having to choose a schedule that irritates the least number of people is somewhat different than hospital staff poking and prodding people every hour or so throughout the night, don't you think?

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#384

Post by irrational » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

mrhappyunhappy wrote: post #337

IB885588 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's a known biological fact that during teenager years the circadian rhythm is affected and normal sleep is pushed later in the night. Having teens wake up early is literally fighting biology and can't but have negative results on their health, education, socialization, etc.

Sure, I barely remember high school seeing how I was half asleep most of it. There was not a day when I did not fall asleep in class early in the morning. I remember having to fake like I was looking down to pick something up just so I could sleep.

How many desks in high school did I drool on while sleeping I wonder?

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#385

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

foobarchu wrote: post #236

GavinMcG wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicine has different concerns than piloting, though. Pilots don't have to ensure continuity of care for their passengers, and can accomplish their work in reasonable chunks. Doubling the number of patient handoffs, on the other hand, significantly increases the risk of one of the more common sources of error.

I've always wondered if the problem might be in the handoff procedures. Those studies about mortality in the event of a handoff always make it sound like obviously handoffs are an inherently dangerous thing, but perhaps the modern way of doing them is just poorly implemented? It feels extremely unlikely to me that absurdly long hours are the only solution.

There's just no way efficient way to capture, log, and communicate every single little detail a doctor observes while diagnosing and setting treatment for a patient. First impressions are often wrong, and little details can become significant later. Early treatment might be designed not only to address symptoms but to exclude other diagnoses.

In a plane in level controlled flight, there is very little to hand off between two type-rated pilots. Both folks understand the machine, and the machine is working the way it is supposed to. Humans work the same way! Parents "hand off" their healthy kids to schools or babysitters or relatives every day.

But imagine a plane that is in the process of crashing; it's in a dive, controls are not responding as expected, one of the engines keeps turning off. A pilot is fighting to regain control... how comfy are you with THAT pilot handing off the aircraft to another pilot in the middle of that situation?

It's a little silly as an analogy, since plane crashes tend to be resolved pretty quickly one or the other. But conceptually, just imagine a plane that is in the process of maybe crashing for 12 hours. There's a good argument for a pilot to just see that through instead of "clocking out" at 8 hours.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#386

Post by brahmwg » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #379

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

> College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. Wait, what? I slept so much in college. Way more than at any other point in my life. You schedule your own classes and aren't actually in class that much, gives you plenty of time to sleep.

Probably depends what you study and at what rate. Alot of students work fulltime in addition to studying fulltime, which basically puts sleep and eating secondary or even tertiary. Socializing isn't on the radar for many.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#387

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

tstrimple wrote: post #375

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To pick up the other kids on a long route. The obvious problem then being that the routes are too long. You have to wonder if there isn't some kind of carpool incentive the school could give to parents to get rid of 90-100% of buses. How many stay at home parents with 9-passenger vehicles would be willing to make $500/month by filling their minivan with other kids when they deliver their own kid as they were going…

All kinds of liability problems with that. School bus drivers are presumably vetted and trained to deal with not just getting from point A to point B, but dealing with students along the way.

School bus driver "vetting" is checking their driving and criminal record and "training" is essentially how to operate a large vehicle. The first could still be done, the second doesn't apply.

And the liability issues all seem to go the other way, don't they? Buses are less safe (they don't even have seatbelts), problematic incidents involve a larger number of students, the buses are more officially associated with the schools, etc. And actual parents obviously have better incentives to make sure their kids are safe than someone who is only doing it for a paycheck.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#388

Post by ubermonkey » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

I had a cycling accident 4 years ago, and so I remember this problem VERY well.

The second time the bright-eyed resident working for my surgeon came by to talk with me WITHOUT HAVING ANY NEW INFORMATION before 6 in the morning, I read him the fucking riot act. It didn't happen again.

But I was a fit (if broken) 44-year-old white dude with good insurance, very sure my privilege and very willing to exploit it. I'm sure they run roughshod over meeker folks.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#389

Post by gardnr » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #359

Lordarminius wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this and most questions regarding school schedules, consider the point that the timing is for the convenience of the adults who need to go l get to work / back home / other tasks, not the children. A school system that puts kids first would start by 9am but how would society cope with that ?

> A school system that puts kids first would start by 9am but how would society cope with that ? Do it like daylight savings time. Have everything start two hours later, all year. The issue for the kids is time related to sunrise, not time related to when the parents go to work.

> The issue for the kids is time related to sunrise, not time related to when the parents go to work.

Is that what it is? I thought it was total sleep duration. Do you have a link explaining more?

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#390

Post by irrational » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

We have 7 kids and I saw this with every one of them. After the baby was born the nurses would come in a minimum of every 2 hours and wake my wife up to ask how she was doing. She would do a lot better if they weren't waking her up! For that very reason my wife wanted to leave the hospital ASAP so she could go home and sleep. I sort of wonder if that is the intention of the hospital, to get patients out sooner, but they make more money the longer you are there... so it doesn't really make any sense any way I look at it.