Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#381

Post by geoelectric » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

chx wrote: post #313

geoelectric wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idea how these compare to the 2.9Ghz dual core i7 in the 2015 MacBook Pro 13"? I'm expecting these to be slower, but have no concept of what an apples to apples comparison looks like there since clock speed can be so misleading between generations. Ditto the UHD 617 vs. Iris 6100, for that matter.

> since clock speed can be so misleading between generations I am sorry but no. They haven't been misleading for a long, long time. IPC grew from Sandy Bridge to Kaby Lake only by 20% https://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/01/13/kaby_lake_7700k_v... and since then nothing because Intel is barely doing more than tweaking the Turbo profiles because 10nm is not happening. All these years the progress was more in power con…

Awesome, thanks for this and the context around clock speed not being quite as misleading anymore modulo thermal throttling.

My takeaway here is that my 2015 MBP13 will still blow away a new MBA then, so no reason to upgrade.

Edit: the GPU comparison may be off, though. MBP13 used an Iris 6100, not an Iris Pro. Problem is I can't find official reference anywhere to an Iris Pro 6100, so have no idea what's reporting for this benchmark. What I do know is the Iris 6100 benched worse than the Iris Pro 5200, whereas this IP6100 in the link benches better.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#382

Post by wild_preference » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

BonesJustice wrote: post #256

finchisko wrote: post #184

Am I the only one, who is excited and considering buying this thing? I'm still on 2012 Air. It's good device, but showing it's age (slow CPU and only 4GB of Ram, the screen resolution is joke). But new Air seems very compelling to me. I'll miss the magsafe though. Also I would like to know if the SSD can be upgraded later (unofficially of course). 2012 Air SSD can be replaced, using cheap reduction (from proprietary…

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal of the new MacBook Air over a regular MacBook? Is it the 13" screen vs. the 12"? I'd just assumed that when Apple introduced that crazy-thin 12" MacBook a couple years ago, it was meant to replace both product lines. I don't understand why it's necessary to maintain a third discrete product line. Why not add a 13" variant to the standard MacBook line with i5 and i7 processor choic…

The Macbook Air also has a fan. The base Macbook does not. The base Macbook therefor hits its thermal ceiling pretty much immediately and is suboptimal in hot environments. My girlfriend's overheats all the time.

Frankly, I think the three product lines should be shaped like this:

- Macbook: For price sensitive people. $800-900 to enter the Apple ecosystem.

- Macbook Air: Basically the current MBP with its fixation on power capped by form-factor. (Note: The new Air is heavier than the MBP!)

- Macbook Pro: A portable workstation that doesn't sacrifice everything for form factor. Apple doesn't have one of these right now. For example, prioritizes thermals so that it can sustain max performance instead of the bursty performance of the current MBPs.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#383

Post by pinewurst » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

SyneRyder wrote: post #377

pinewurst wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The i7-8510Y is the only one with the specified 617 graphics, but thanks for pointing out that difference. Maybe they have a slightly lower-spec custom i5 SKU from Intel? I'd be surprised though if it wasn't a Y-device nevertheless.

Looks like it's landed in Intel ARK now - i5-8210Y: https://ark.intel.com/products/189912/Intel-Core-i5-8210Y-Pr...

Thanks for posting - that's a pretty big yawn part. The Haswell in my current old Macbook Pro (a wonderful laptop) beats that easily enough.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#384

Post by cs02rm0 » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #299

cs02rm0 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be a MacBook. They'll just sell you a $200 keyboard for the iPad pro and expect that to be good enough. I've long been convinced the intention is to kill off the MacBook lineup.

Isn't the longevity of such a theory a rather convincing argument against it?

Eventually. I don't think they could ever have thrown x86 out quickly though, not without some cataclysmic event.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#385

Post by collinmanderson » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

cauthon wrote: post #349

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I hear you and I agree (I wrote the post above you after all), pricing has been a bit tough. But since you asked, some additional background information comparing the 2014 $1300 Mac to today's $1300 Mac (which isn't a 2018 model, but rather the 2017 model and prices.) Geekbench 4 single/multicore scores are 30% and 42% faster respectively. The latter can do 4k resolution output. It's almost half a pound light…

Fair. I don't think the actual processor matters much, I could have written "basic dual-core processor" to make my point. It's more frustrating that the entry-level RAM and storage options haven't increased at all in almost 5 years. To your points: I'd rather have the old form factor and weight, multiple hours extra battery life, and a usable set of ports. I compared the three entry-level laptops because I thought it…

I think currently extra ram eats into the extra battery life, and Apple's been trading less ram for more battery life.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#386

Post by chemmail » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 10:27 PM UTC

collinmanderson wrote: post #385

cauthon wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. I don't think the actual processor matters much, I could have written "basic dual-core processor" to make my point. It's more frustrating that the entry-level RAM and storage options haven't increased at all in almost 5 years. To your points: I'd rather have the old form factor and weight, multiple hours extra battery life, and a usable set of ports. I compared the three entry-level laptops because I thought it…

I think currently extra ram eats into the extra battery life, and Apple's been trading less ram for more battery life.

Also don't forget the less than 50% TDP budget of 7W now compared to last gens 15W.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#387

Post by chemmail » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 10:36 PM UTC

wild_preference wrote: post #382

BonesJustice wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal of the new MacBook Air over a regular MacBook? Is it the 13" screen vs. the 12"? I'd just assumed that when Apple introduced that crazy-thin 12" MacBook a couple years ago, it was meant to replace both product lines. I don't understand why it's necessary to maintain a third discrete product line. Why not add a 13" variant to the standard MacBook line with i5 and i7 processor choic…

The Macbook Air also has a fan. The base Macbook does not. The base Macbook therefor hits its thermal ceiling pretty much immediately and is suboptimal in hot environments. My girlfriend's overheats all the time. Frankly, I think the three product lines should be shaped like this: - Macbook: For price sensitive people. $800-900 to enter the Apple ecosystem. - Macbook Air: Basically the current MBP with its fixation o…

The Macbook has a 4.5W chip and the Macbook Air has a 7W chip now. So you get 2 extra Watts TDP and an extra port. The Air is actually $100 cheaper and 1 inch larger screen effectively obsoleting the Macbook. The Macbook has always been a weird place, it should really be the budget budget mac, but has always been a lot more than the Air.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#388

Post by flurrything » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:54 PM UTC

cauthon wrote: post #231

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #150

Love the device but I can't get over how expensive it has gotten. A 20% price bump... Sure, there's still the old Macbook Air around, but it wasn't updated and is based on a decade old model with a CPU/GPU that's a 3 years old (5th gen i5 from 2015), and a 128 PPI screen, that's a bit ridiculous. If you want a modern machine you're looking at $1200 for the cheapest model. That isn't even too bad but when you go abroa…

> Love the device but I can't get over how expensive it has gotten. A 20% price bump... I got downvoted for posting this as a top-level comment, but it's insane to me how Apple's hardware specs have stagnated while maintaining the same price. In 2014 I bought an entry-level Macbook Pro with retina display, 2.6 GHz i5 processor, 8 GB of RAM, and 128 GB SSD for $1300. In 2018 I can buy the entry-level Macbook Pro with…

Dude, I bought a max spec'ed macbook air mid 2012 with 256Gb SSD + 256Gb SD Card, a dual core, and 8Gb of RAM, for ~1600 EUR in 2012.

In 2018 I would have to pay 2000 EUR for 512Gb SSD, still a dual core, 16Gb of RAM that is only slightly more powerful than my mid 2012 machine (I haven't found benchmarks yet that manage to get a 2x difference) to the point where it is just not worth upgrading.

If I were to upgrade it, I would throw 1500 EUR at Dell for a quad core, 32Gb RAM, and a 1TB SSD, maybe with nvidia discreet graphics. A similarly spec'ed macbook pro sets you at 3-4k EUR...

The only people I can imagine buying macbooks in 2018 are those not paying for them themselves (company laptop) because for an individual they just don't make financial sense - one can get similarly spec'ed laptops for almost half the price.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#389

Post by flurrything » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #238

cauthon wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Love the device but I can't get over how expensive it has gotten. A 20% price bump... I got downvoted for posting this as a top-level comment, but it's insane to me how Apple's hardware specs have stagnated while maintaining the same price. In 2014 I bought an entry-level Macbook Pro with retina display, 2.6 GHz i5 processor, 8 GB of RAM, and 128 GB SSD for $1300. In 2018 I can buy the entry-level Macbook Pro with…

I'm sympathetic to the complaint about price, but if your contention is that the devices are basically unchanged, then why buy a 2018 model? Why not buy a 2014 model? And if you don't want to make that sacrifice, then there's probably something different about the device that Apple is assuming is worth ponying up for the upgrade for you. (For starters, despite the similar clock speed and processor names, the processo…

> I'm sympathetic to the complaint about price, but if your contention is that the devices are basically unchanged, then why buy a 2018 model? Why not buy a 2014 model?

Why buy a new model at all? I have a fully-spec'ed macbook mid 2012 which costed 1600 EUR and has 512Gb HDD thanks to a 256Gb SD Card. Benchmark-wise, the macbook air 2018 is not 2x faster in any benchmark. Still a dual core, still 8Gb RAM, 128Gb without SD Card slot, etc. For a model with equivalent HDD I have to pay >2k EUR for the 16Gb RAM and 512 SSD.

It's pretty impossible to justify upgrading from this 2012 model. That's 2000 EUR for a Retina display, and that's pretty much it. Throw in a 1 Tb SSD, 32 Gb RAM and a quad or six core, and upgrading might be worth it. But that would mean a macbook pro 2018 in the ~3k EUR range, which is a different price range and probably not worth paying given that these come without nvidia discreet graphics.

With this product line, it makes much more sense for me to upgrade to a Dell than to another macbook.

Re: Apple Finally Updates MacBook Air with Retina Display, Touch ID

#390

Post by flurrything » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

dewiz wrote: post #262

cauthon wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Love the device but I can't get over how expensive it has gotten. A 20% price bump... I got downvoted for posting this as a top-level comment, but it's insane to me how Apple's hardware specs have stagnated while maintaining the same price. In 2014 I bought an entry-level Macbook Pro with retina display, 2.6 GHz i5 processor, 8 GB of RAM, and 128 GB SSD for $1300. In 2018 I can buy the entry-level Macbook Pro with…

sure Apple is expensive, but I think you're leaving out important details, like screen resolution, touchpad, keyboard (though that's been good for ages), OS improvements, power consumption, bluetooth and wifi, etc.

> OS improvements,

Mojave still works fine in a `2012` macbook air, which still does have >9h battery life (a new battery costs 60 EUR).

The touchpad is great, and it has an SD Card reader that can be used to bump its 256Gb SSD with slow extra storage for cheap.

So here I am, trying to find any reason that would justify upgrading a 2012 macbook air to a 2018 macbook air and the only thing that's worth it is the new display - sadly that's not worth > 2000 EUR.