Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#381

Post by wstuartcl » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

RandomTisk wrote: post #132

kens wrote: post #115

I'm a tolerant person, but recently I switched from Windows to Mac because the forced Windows updates kept messing me up. One time I left a long simulation running overnight. In the morning, I was greeted by a computer that had automatically rebooted to install updates, killing my simulation. Another instance was my daughter's birthday party, where she wanted to show a movie. The computer decided to spend an hour doi…

That really long greeting that says "your files are where you left them" that you can't speed up or cancel out of makes me want to kick puppies.

Is it trying to convince me or itself of that.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#382

Post by exodust » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 8:59 AM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #361

exodust wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor analogy, and typical of the deferred-update paranoia crowd, thinking the worst and feeling exposed because Microsoft says you are in "critical danger". A better analogy: You should keep your bicycle helmet on in the shower due to the slippery tiles and statistics of shower-related head injuries. Or this... Believe it or not, when you leave home without your umbrella, it may not rain. You know this, but you take…

The analogy was more than apt: a car crash is devastating, as is losing your identity, it's more likely than people tend to think, and the cost of protecting yourself against this devastating thing is relatively low. If anything, the umbrella analogy wasn't great, because getting wet is a consequence of forgetting your umbrella, and that's far from as devastating as having your identity stolen. Further, you getting w…

Try disengaging "worst case scenario" mode. You argument is hinged on seat belt catastrophe, loss of livelihood, identity theft, botnets, and general worst case computer doom.

Losing your livelihood because you didn't update Windows in a timely manner? That's beyond a joke. Besides, Anti-virus software would do a better job of preventing these worst case events.

The reason people have their identities stolen or computers hacked is mainly because of human error. People open attachments; people fail to identify scam emails and start engaging with criminals; people enter information willingly on websites they shouldn't, people put USB drives they find on the ground into their computers; people do dumb things and no "critical security update" is going to stop that.

Yes, forgetting your umbrella results in getting wet. Running with your logic, we need to extend the analogy. The rain gets on your watch causing it to malfunction and tells the wrong time, so you miss your train. You turn up late to the interview, you don't get the job, you can't pay the rent, you get kicked out, you're now homeless and living on the street. Really should have taken that umbrella.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#383

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

amaccuish wrote: post #340

kens wrote: post #115

I'm a tolerant person, but recently I switched from Windows to Mac because the forced Windows updates kept messing me up. One time I left a long simulation running overnight. In the morning, I was greeted by a computer that had automatically rebooted to install updates, killing my simulation. Another instance was my daughter's birthday party, where she wanted to show a movie. The computer decided to spend an hour doi…

What kills me is that the "active hours" setting stops you from setting longer than 8 hours. I want my server to install updates between 0100 and 0500, but that just isn't possible.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#384

Post by diminoten » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

exodust wrote: post #382

diminoten wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy was more than apt: a car crash is devastating, as is losing your identity, it's more likely than people tend to think, and the cost of protecting yourself against this devastating thing is relatively low. If anything, the umbrella analogy wasn't great, because getting wet is a consequence of forgetting your umbrella, and that's far from as devastating as having your identity stolen. Further, you getting w…

Try disengaging "worst case scenario" mode. You argument is hinged on seat belt catastrophe, loss of livelihood, identity theft, botnets, and general worst case computer doom. Losing your livelihood because you didn't update Windows in a timely manner? That's beyond a joke. Besides, Anti-virus software would do a better job of preventing these worst case events. The reason people have their identities stolen or compu…

It's not a joke, ransomware for example is real, and it's a huge problem. If you know anything about security you know that ransomware is on the rise and it's getting worse each year.

Malware infecting an insecure computer is not a "worst case scenario", this happens to millions of computers each year.

"Only" 6 million car accidents happen per year in the US, even though there were ~10 billion car trips over that same set of people and area, which makes the incidence rate 0.06%, so why bother with a seatbelt? It's "beyond a joke" to think you're going to get into an accident today!

This isn't a debate; keeping your system up to date is, by far, the best way to stay safe from a real threat. You can pretend it's not there all you want, but the rest of us are going to take care, and would appreciate if you didn't contribute to the sea of botnets. You make everyone less safe.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#385

Post by diminoten » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

kurtisc wrote: post #380

diminoten wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but your claim that Windows Update is "frustrating and buggy" just doesn't mesh with my experience, so it's hard to relate to your concern. I don't think I've ever noticed Windows update running, except for the once-a-month or so times I've come back to my computer and it's been restarted. Hardly "buggy" or "frustrating". Admittedly I don't think all Microsoft updates that get pushed out are security patc…

My frustration with a personal PC is just turning one on the morning after doing updates and having to wait an hour before I could go back to work. For silly reasons, though, I've had to update a lot of OEM Windows Home installations to new. Something like Ubuntu would have been better if starting from scratch but there was a lot of work to move the codebase to that once Windows stopped being something you could trus…

I get all that, but your last line resonates most with me.

> My very proprietary Chromebook updates painlessly.

This is how my experience is with Windows. It's painless. Zero issues. It operates exactly as I expect, and I have no problems.

Besides, running Linux distros came with the veritable cavalcade of revolving "Why won't this basic thing work?" -> "Maybe this forum post from 3 years ago will help" -> "Okay now my mouse won't move." -> "Better reinstall the OS to get things working again" -> "Why won't this basic thing work?" and so on. Ubuntu is probably, to me, the experience you feel you're having with Windows.

Linux desktops feel like a hobby unto themselves, which may be fine for some, but is not what interests me.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#386

Post by exodust » Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 4:45 AM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #384

exodust wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try disengaging "worst case scenario" mode. You argument is hinged on seat belt catastrophe, loss of livelihood, identity theft, botnets, and general worst case computer doom. Losing your livelihood because you didn't update Windows in a timely manner? That's beyond a joke. Besides, Anti-virus software would do a better job of preventing these worst case events. The reason people have their identities stolen or compu…

It's not a joke, ransomware for example is real, and it's a huge problem. If you know anything about security you know that ransomware is on the rise and it's getting worse each year. Malware infecting an insecure computer is not a "worst case scenario", this happens to millions of computers each year. "Only" 6 million car accidents happen per year in the US, even though there were ~10 billion car trips over that sam…

> This isn't a debate

Be advised that you don't get to decide on whether this is or isn't a debate. You are attempting to re-frame the debate to suit your precarious position.

This debate as specified in the parent discussions, is about Microsoft enforcing updates on people without choice. This causes annoyance and even loss of work. The top comment describes Windows as an "an update engine that will sometimes also do computation for you". This is a significant and legitimate criticism that trumps your arm-flailing about malware (which as I said would be better defended with virus protection).

As the parent poster said, many of the vulnerabilities discovered are exploitable only locally, or under very specific and rare circumstances, yet are still flagged as "critical" and bundled with user interface updates.

Then you rode in on your horse, citing car accidents and seat belts, which really doesn't help in the context of having control over when system updates are performed. Nobody said "never update". It's about control over when those updates happen.

> ...but the rest of us are going to take care, and would appreciate if you didn't contribute to...

You're having a hard enough time speaking for yourself, please don't branch out to speaking for others.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#387

Post by sundvor » Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

sundvor wrote: post #190

skytreader wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem isn't just that Windows updates happen immediately by default. It's that Windows updates when you boot up your computer. See, turning on a computer is an explicit declaration that you want to use it. Windows updates ignores this declaration by taking that time to itself. It doesn't matter if I can defer the update by how many days if one day it will stop/delay me from using my computer when I want…

Fair enough, and thanks for that info. I haven't really looked at it from the starting up point of view as the shutting down one. For whatever reason it hasn't impacted me, and that's also having a laptop that only gets irregular use as well as my regular desktop, but I'll be more observant about this going forward.

For posterity, I realise I have been bitten by this.

Updates may have an "on startup" component to them. If you shut down, currently you are forced to install updates on the shutdown - this happens silently, without permission. But: It will just do the shutdown side - so that the next time you start, you're stuck there looking at the "startup part" where updates continue to install.

MS ought to fix this, either by changing how updates are installed in two phases, or to incorporate an automatic "shutdown/install"=>"start windows, run updates"=>"shut down" option.

Also they should let you just shut down the PC without having to install updates, especially if you don't have time to do so.

Currently, as a user, the only really safe thing to do would be to "update and restart" followed by a shutdown.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#388

Post by mcny » Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

Piskvorrr wrote: post #374

msaharia wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libre office is not even 10% MS Office. Don't know why people recommend it. It messes up my word formatting.

Current versions are pretty good - and while MS Office is a veritable power tool (I know no real equivalent to MS Access), most users use ~10% of the functionality; sufficient for many, esp. at the price. As for the formatting - yeah, MS doesn't seem to follow its own document formatting standards, even for the newer documents. That puts other suites in a hard spot: a) follow standards and present imperfect documents…

Joel Spolsky is obviously not neutral having been an Excel manager but he wrote that while everyone uses less than 20% of Excel, not everyone uses the same 20% of Excel.

I don't know Excel but I know there are people running entire departments on Excel spreadsheets.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#389

Post by Piskvorrr » Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 3:32 PM UTC

mcny wrote: post #388

Piskvorrr wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current versions are pretty good - and while MS Office is a veritable power tool (I know no real equivalent to MS Access), most users use ~10% of the functionality; sufficient for many, esp. at the price. As for the formatting - yeah, MS doesn't seem to follow its own document formatting standards, even for the newer documents. That puts other suites in a hard spot: a) follow standards and present imperfect documents…

Joel Spolsky is obviously not neutral having been an Excel manager but he wrote that while everyone uses less than 20% of Excel, not everyone uses the same 20% of Excel. I don't know Excel but I know there are people running entire departments on Excel spreadsheets.

Indeed. I do not see a contradiction between that and what I have written.

(Having seen many Excel spreadsheets, 80% of the work is done by rudimentary means: pivot tables are Advanced Magic in this regard)

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#390

Post by BuckRogers » Fri, Oct 12, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #334

BuckRogers wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not going to be at the desk for 24+ hours at all, then you would hit this slider[0]. Updates don't come through that often though. A patch every 30 days, a service pack every 6 months. I run 30 days behind on patches, and 365 days behind on service packs. If your machine is used that often for 24+ hour rendering projects, you might want a non-home edition of Windows10 such as LTSC. I do agree though that t…

So you have to buy 5 copies of windows under a volume license so your computer doesn't reboot?

That's a strawman argument, because an alternative was already offered in my post. Yes, you can upgrade your software to prevent it. I don't care what you personally prefer or choose to do, I'm just telling the facts and options with Windows.