Live data from Hacker News

The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

bloomberg.com

381–390 of 818 posts

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#381
post #362
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another problem is anti-tampering measure is applied before the initial tampering check have been applied. Anyway, that wouldn't solve everything considering that if the chip itself is tampered with, that's undetectable short of an electron microscope analysis and even that wouldn't solve the problem of backdoor in the original chip design. As you say, that's un-winnable. The only way to really build trust is the cap…

> the real oblivion (destruction of shareholder value) with criminal charge for the company officers This very rarely happens even if people have got killed. Also, good luck suing a Chinese company in China.

I reckon this could be addressed with contractual guarantees in exchange for doing business in the first place. Make it a contractual requirement that the supplier agree to adjudication in the United States in the case of security related concerns or other tampering with the final product or with the designs. They could still refuse if something happens, but I reckon at that point you can just work to shut them out entirely from the US market.

At this point, I think it's fair to establish an industry watchdog group that works as a clearinghouse for knowing all the American companies sourcing parts from the PRC and which companies they source from. This watchdog organization would be responsible for blacklisting suppliers from the entire US market if they don't agree to adjudicate in the US or if they fail to meet that contractual obligation).

This won't bankrupt them outright, but it will sever them from the US and if this watchdog group expands to aid non-US companies, could help shut them out of the entire global market.

I would also require registration of all top executives of these corporations so that you would make the punishment sticky if they moved to other companies. Overall, you've got to set a high punitive cost to non-compliance and non-cooperation.

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has the West completely lost the ability ... at first I had the same thought. but i have to question how securely the same manufacturing could be done in a US plant. the US employee base has its fair share of desperate, ethically challenged individuals. and plenty of incentives to make a quick buck could be offered here too. idk.

The consequences if US citizens or residents get caught engaging in espionage for a foreign government are go-to-jail-for-years serious.

And it's not white collar resort prison ... no no no!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could this be solved by a clause in the contract that specified if any randomly sampled devices came tampered with, the manufacturer did not get paid?

Ah, yes, and then we would voluntarily go out of business. And the supplier will just have another customer that would not be so principled.

Huh? This would be between you and the Chinese manufacturer. If you found s tampered unit, you don’t pay them. How should that make you go out of business?

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#384
post #243
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes that 1) the intelligence community has the power to stop it and 2) that Apple believes this to be the case and 3) that Apple is confident that the intel community would use that power to protect them. That seems like a reach to me.

#3 isn't the intel community protecting Apple, it would be protecting themselves, which is a lot more plausible. They don't want detailed information about the techniques coming out. Odds are good that the Bloomberg story is still incomplete in some critical way, and decent that even if the story as a whole is broadly-speaking "true" there's still an outright lie contained in it. My guess would be the way in which it…

> Odds are good that the Bloomberg story is still incomplete in some critical way

You mean like this?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18139371

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#385
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked up supermicro blade motherboards, and saw that the chip was right near the IPMI chip's line to spi flash. And prior to that, there were already persistent rumors in the Chinese interney of certain Chinese mobos sending "weird garbage on ICMP," and "BMCs that somehow boot and work with their flash memory soldered off" Remembering that, I might even suggest that this is not a modchip that does something with s…

An update on that theory: AST2400 has option for two SPI memories, one main, one "recovery." https://download.csdn.net/download/duanzhang512/10385038 The recovery overrides the primary if detected by default. The place they put their "filter cap" is right on top the empty TSOP8 pad for the recovery flash. And they probably ordered the factory to sneak the traces just a little bit more, or put hidden vias under it, or…

eh, does this mean that the motherboard is not tampered with ?

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#387

Just as a sidenote: X-raying PCBs and then diffing them against clean PCBs is a worthwhile thing to do if you're concerned about hardware backdoors, or 'interdiction' of hardware in a supply chain. I do this sometimes when ordering super-critical equipment like Thinkpads from the U.S as you never know what lurks on the motherboard (keyloggers, etc). I have a clean Thinkpad that I use to compare against potential back…

> X-raying PCBs and then diffing them against clean PCBs is a worthwhile thing to do if you're concerned about hardware backdoors, or 'interdiction' of hardware in a supply chain. I do this sometimes when ordering super-critical equipment like Thinkpads from the U.S as you never know what lurks on the motherboard (keyloggers, etc).

I'm curious - how does one go about buying or getting access to an x-ray machine (and how much does that cost)?

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#388

I am sincerly impressed by the amount of supply chain analysis and operative supply chain management that went into that hack. And once the Chinese identified a distribution node in that particular supply chain, supermicro, they opted for a brute force attack by seeding these backdoor chips into supermicros servers and wating where they ended up. That was one hell of a hack. It also gives you pause. Did that happen o…

if they really are widely seeded (and it’s general knowledge/easily assumed that the pla leans on other manufacturers), this gives me a few ideas about what could happen in the event of conflict between china and the US. turnkey shutdown of the entire economy.

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#389

So the chip shown in the article looks like a typical SMD balun, it is a type of transformer used to adapt impedance between two transmission line. It’s designed to replace a series a lumped element (capacitor, inductors, resistors) normally used for impedance adaptation (in a T or Pi network). The most common used for the device is directly between an antenna an a RF front-end to serve as an antenna tuner. Technical…

It seems to me that embedding an RF front-end, back-end, and signal manipulation logic in a chip of the size shown in the article would be extraordinarily difficult. Assuming that feat was achievable, it would likely result in serious performance hits on that transmission line right? Signal latency would probably be a dead giveaway for something like EEPROM reads being manipulated.

Re: The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Amazon and Apple

#390
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd very much love to hear more stories if you have any!

We had MasterCard end-to-end test auditor on site. This is the first time ever you get to do a transaction with real transaction system with real credit card. Due to requirements we opted to have the only large meeting room to have outside our secure zone. This created an issue as we had no network access from there and in the end we decided to use slow GPRS terminal for the test. The end-to-end test starts with offl…

Agreeing with mortenjorck. I'd love to read longer stories.
Post reply on HN