Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#381

Post by kwhitefoot » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 11:29 AM UTC

audunw wrote: post #74

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

How far ahead are you thinking? BEVs are likely to match pure ICEVs (I.e. not counting hybrids) in range in the not too distant future. Yeah you could theoretically put in a bigger fuel tank, or bring extra gasoline. But I mean a standard light vehicle that doesn't sacrifice storage space. Meanwhile, if you get enough EVs on the road, you'll soon have charging stations everywhere. We already see it here in Norway. Al…

> There are a couple of supermarket chains that have gotten pretty good at having chargers in many of their supermarkets.

Not where I am. I've recently driven several times from Drammen to Trondheim and never seen a charger at any of the supermarkets I passed on the way. I don't mean they don't exist, just that I didn't see them, can you list a few of them?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#382

Post by Annatar » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 11:46 AM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #371

Annatar wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I guess you'll need just need to get the bus when you cant get a fossil fuel vehicle any more. Good luck." A bus also needs diesel (:-D) My car is old enough that I could make my own biodiesel with the electricity from solar panels and run on it, so when the rest are stuck, I'll always have fuel. Even if nuclear war hits.

There are already 100% electric busses running in London and elsewhere, with more on their way. Good luck making your own fuel (N.B. in a lot of places it is illegal or in dubious grey-areas, plus there are the obvious environmental and safety implications which might prevent you from doing it one way or another). Why not just use that electricity from the solar panels to charge an EV's batteries?

"Good luck making your own fuel (N.B. in a lot of places it is illegal or in dubious grey-areas,"

Biodiesel has lower emissions of both NOx and CO2. By the time we're in such an apocalyptic scenario where internal combustion engines are a thing of the post, nobody will be giving a damn about some guy driving such an anachronism. And show me where it's illegal to produce one's own fuel.

"Why not just use that electricity from the solar panels to charge an EV's batteries?"

(Car guy here! I just came back from Hockenheim with my racing license not too long ago!)

Because with my diesel, I have a range of at least 1000 km, ~1300 km if I hypermile. Batteries lose capacity. Electric cars have no clutch pedal nor a manual transmission (they don't need it), so for a car guy like me, that sucks serious ass. Acceleration isn't everything: electric vehicles sap all the enjoyment out of driving. If there were electric cars with a clutch pedal and a manual transmission, I'd be willing to trade the range and make a compromise, but there aren't so there is no incentive for me to do so.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#383

Post by netcan » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #343

yholio wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. Carbon taxing works well when it's applied - but it's very hard to create the political consensus to impose it. For example, the high cost of fuel in Europe has driven cars to an average MPG equivalent of 45 versus the average of 33 in US. That's nothing to sneeze at, it's 40% more for a given am…

I think the issue with carbon taxes is a 10-20% reduction isn't enough. A 75% reduction is needed. Which means some sectors the reduction will have to be more than that. At that point bans make more sense.

Exactly what I meant. The whole vehicle tax, externality-pricing approach does not make sense if you walk away from the chalkboard and look at the big picture.

Also, not every 20% is the same. 20% reductions in emmisions because 20% of the fleet is electric-from-solar is a lot closer to 100% than 20% because of lighter cars and more efficient ICEs.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#384

Post by jimmaswell » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

rasz wrote: post #377

jimmaswell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

>Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples .... One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doesn't bankrupt me until you get into an accident severe enough to need extensive medical attention.

Besides health insurance, my legally bare minimim car insurance is mandated to have 20k or something of medical coverage.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#385

Post by dsfyu404ed » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 2:34 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #355

merb wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

basically in europe there are not a lot of pickups to none out there. in europe there is a trend for SUVs at the moment, but besides that we mostly buy limousines.

Indeed but it's funny that most SUVs are (what I'd call) fake SUVs. They look beefy and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg (like the Hyundai ix35). And then there are the real ones that may at first glance look the same but easily pull up to or over 2400 kg (Volvo xc90 versions).

>and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg

This is a reflection of the vehicle platforms they're built on. You take a Civic or a Dart slap on AWD, a lift kit and extra 500-1000lb of body/interior and call it a CRV or a Cherokee and there's not much spare capacity left to haul cargo or tow trailers.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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Post by krolley » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 2:48 PM UTC

thomasahle wrote: post #261

xxs wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it ironic that most of welfare and subsidies actually come from the oil. Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there. While Norway is an amazing country in many aspects, the amount of oil owned by a state company puts it in a rather unique position.

> Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there. It's not really common. They only have one tunnel that's 24.5km ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tunnels_in_Norway ) and it's not under the sea. The remaining are 10km or shorter. The longest undersea tunnel is 8.9km and it goes to a city with a population of 8,215. It goes to an entire island though,…

Aren't they building the Coastal Highway at a cost of $47B that will include a few tunnels and a few more bridges?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#387

Post by dbuder » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #241

People especially here constantly rail against Europe, specifically their start-up scene, against taxes, against regulations, etc. At the same time, our cities are unlivable, inaccessible, crowded, our infrastructure is falling apart, a widening gap between the wealthy and the poor causing increases in homelessness in cities and opiod addiction in rural areas. Western Europe isn't utopia, but in many areas, their pol…

All while using technology developed somewhere else and produced somewhere else.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#388

Post by lasc4r » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #314

BonjelaSoup wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "People especially here constantly rail against Europe" > "our cities" Where is "here" and "our cities"?

People love to cherry pick a statistic from one European city, and ask why all of the American empire can't be like that. /s/public transportation/health care/cars/etc.

Cherry picking isn't really needed, infrastructure and health care are a disaster here.

edit: For some perspective, there are 240,000 water main breaks every year in the US, wasting over 2 trillion gallons of treated drinking water.

https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/drinking-w...

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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Post by munificent » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #115

munificent wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. We could, for example, discourage smoking by putting a $500 tax on each pack of cigarettes. But at that point, you may as well stop pretending and ban it ou…

> One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. I'm not sure I agree. I could easily imagine a range of carbon taxes applied to vehicles where most, but not all, users would switch to electric. There could easily be people who like taking long trips far from major roads and are willing to pay a large premium to do so. >…

This is a good moral question. My impression is that some people today, especially here on HN, feel very uncomfortable taking any moral stance and instead have a worldview that says what is right is determined entirely by what the market produces. Basically capitalism is God.

I like capitalism, but I view it as a means to an end, not an end in itself. Instead of evaluating our moral against what capitalism produces, we should evaluate capitalism by how well it supports our morals.

From that perspective, yeah, I think it is kind of bad. If we are placing a high tax on cigarettes because our society has made a moral choice that cigarettes are bad and people who smoke are bad, then I think that moral choice should apply equally to all people regardless of wealth. My moral code states that power does not excuse sins.

On the other hand, if the tax is a pragmatic one to, say, help pay for universal healthcare and offset the higher medical costs incurred by smokers, then the tax is a reasonable approach.

In reality, the tax/law is probably a combination of the two goals, which is why I think a tax is kind of bad but kind of OK.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#390

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #389

amluto wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. I'm not sure I agree. I could easily imagine a range of carbon taxes applied to vehicles where most, but not all, users would switch to electric. There could easily be people who like taking long trips far from major roads and are willing to pay a large premium to do so. >…

This is a good moral question. My impression is that some people today, especially here on HN, feel very uncomfortable taking any moral stance and instead have a worldview that says what is right is determined entirely by what the market produces. Basically capitalism is God. I like capitalism, but I view it as a means to an end, not an end in itself. Instead of evaluating our moral against what capitalism produces,…

Regressive taxes are problematic, sure. But never mind any decision on moral grounds. Smoking, for example, has a high cost to society. We seek to reduce it to lower that cost.