EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’ • Hacker News Board

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#381

Post by bad_user » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

pwned1 wrote: post #196

ahakki wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I’m not allowed to use your service you won’t get any of my money though. Unlike kids under the age of 13 I have disposable income.

It's looking more and more like your money isn't worth the compliance cost to companies to obtain your money.

Not that I agree with this copyright directive, it's horrible and I intend to find out which of my representatives supported it such that I can do something about it.

But the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market and it is a common market in spite of legal and cultural differences between countries. So that's pretty naive.

And if companies think the "compliance cost" is too big, that's fine, it means they are leaving money on the table for their competition to pick up. The best outcome is actually the EU getting some real alternatives to US services that are deemed to be indispensable.

So personally, as an EU citizen, for companies no longer wanting to serve EU citizens, all I can say is don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#382

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #221

heavenlyhash wrote: post #116

So since the majority of the voices here on HN seem to be pretty negative towards this, I think it's worth noting there are some creative voices who are in favor of some copyright law. For example, here's one fellow on the twitter machine who's a composer and seems pleased: https://twitter.com/Howard_Goodall/status/103983376226213478... Simultaneously, I'm not campaigning in favor of the "link tax" component, here. I…

I generally agree, living in a democracy means that sometimes you have things happen you don't agree with because a majority either doesn't agree with you or doesn't care enough to bother. In a few years the EU could be on it's way to undo the linktax again, who knows? Meanwhile there are other EU proposals on the way that are also interesting for tech people, not only the linktax and "delete terror in 1 hour or else…

>because a majority either doesn't agree with you or doesn't care enough to bother. //

That's why we've not moved on from representative democracy. The problem is the representatives are supposed to represent the people - and the people think they do (or try) - but in practice the representatives often don't.

In the UK we very rarely get chance to influence decisions, instead we get to choose the people who will decide, and they almost? always lie about how they will make decisions and what will influence them.

PR would make it better, but reduce the power of those who need to decide to give us PR.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#383

Post by pluma » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

pwned1 wrote: post #184

pluma wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how you think those two are even remotely related or in the same category. Oh, and by the way, as long as you show something to EU visitors (even an error page telling them to GTFO), you need a privacy policy.

Bureaucracy, compliance cost, uncertainty of enforcement... The category doesn't need to be the same, just the pile upon pile of anti-(small)business regulation.

You say "anti-business", I say "consumer rights" (and more importantly "human rights").

As a small business you can comply with the GDPR fairly easily unless you have no regard for anyone's privacy to begin with. And even if you're not 100% compliant you won't be insta-sued to bankruptcy, you'll only be reported and the relevant data protection agency will check on you. The GDPR encourages data protection agencies to help businesses fix their problems and only use fines as a last resort for gross violations and wilful negligence.

Unless you're storing/processing information that has special protections (e.g. religion, sexual orientation, medical data) the bureaucracy is also fairly tame, especially for small businesses, especially for businesses that aren't at their core based on processing personal information (e.g. not online dating startups).

Compare this with the "upload filter" as it has been interpreted in the media so far: allegedly every website that allows users to upload content would have to implement their own Content ID database and sign deals with publishing companies or license filtering services.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#384

Post by petermcneeley » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #292

Copyright is a contract between two groups where a copyright holder dictates the terms under which their material may be used or duplicated. If the receiving party to that material violates those terms (say they've received a movie screener for an unreleased film and leaked it), they are in violation of that contract and should pay the fees dictated in their contract. To argue that all parties everywhere should be fo…

This is not the definition of Copyright. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

Your definition is some alternative Libertarian definition of what copyright could be in an alternative society.

Update: I cannot comprehend the reason for downvote without reply. You provided a false definition of Copyright and I provided a correct definition along with why your view might not be the reality.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#385

Post by teget » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

chatmasta wrote: post #65

loa-in-backup wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's going to work like jaywalking - it's illegal, but I've done it, and it's fine as long as it doesn't cause a bigger issue, and as long as enforcer isn't overzealous. It's true though, that it's a weapon waiting to be used for political reasons, and the perspective of that happening is no good for anybody.

I think this is spot-on. Laws like this are inherently unenforceable at a global scale, and therefore are selectively enforced. The enforcement agencies have limited resources and therefore will focus on politically strategic targets. This is a political weapon. Unfortunately, the downstream effects will hurt everyone else.

No enforcement agency is required to enforce this law. Rightholders will sue non-filtering platforms over potentional lost sales due to their "wilful negligence". And if the offending platform has any business in Germany (or another country with similar laws) this will be a gold mine for any law business issuing cease and desist letters in the name of competing plattforms.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#386

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

sebst wrote: post #109

amelius wrote: post #60

I'm worried not so much about the outcome of this decision (which indeed is bad), but more about the whole decision-making process and how often we'll see such uninformed decisionmaking in the future.

I'd rather not call it "uninformed". We pay good amounts of money to parliamentarians, including their personal assistants. It's more like a "bug" in democracy as such. As long as a topic doesn't have widespread attention, it's the lobbyists who make the laws, not the citizens. I am pretty sure there are other bad laws in other very specific areas, we as techies don't have a clue about. As I've written in another com…

Unfortunately this bug, which is in my opinion most of the time caused by the people and not the system democracy itself, can be exploited by both lobbyists and populists.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#387

Post by arnvald » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #319

heavenlyhash wrote: post #116

So since the majority of the voices here on HN seem to be pretty negative towards this, I think it's worth noting there are some creative voices who are in favor of some copyright law. For example, here's one fellow on the twitter machine who's a composer and seems pleased: https://twitter.com/Howard_Goodall/status/103983376226213478... Simultaneously, I'm not campaigning in favor of the "link tax" component, here. I…

The crucial issue that I miss both in this directive and the current practice is that companies are encouraged to use automatic filters while actual copyright holder have almost no way of appealing against false copyright claims. I'd be fine with automatic content tagging if at the same time false copyright claims by someone who does not actually hold the copyright would lead to a hefty fine and/or be considered a cr…

This is a good point. False copyright claims should be penalized, enforcing companies to improve the accuracy of their claims.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#388

Post by C14L » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

dnate wrote: post #228

village-idiot wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the newspapers forgot that Google doesn’t need them .

The issue is that we as a society need diverse and independent newspapers.

Agreed. But this approach is not going to achieve that. On the contrary.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#389

Post by tomatotomato37 » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #223

Hijacking the top comment: Can someone explain me why EU was considered knowledgable about the internet in case of GDPR, but isn't now? Have they lost their knowledge in the meantime?

I think they just shifted into the general direction of regulating the internet more and are listening to anyone who's complaining loudly and then just copypasting their ideas into legislation, instead of coming up with the specifics themselves. It just so happens that they heard the privacy guys first over the copyright guys first.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#390

Post by Y_Y » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #292

Copyright is a contract between two groups where a copyright holder dictates the terms under which their material may be used or duplicated. If the receiving party to that material violates those terms (say they've received a movie screener for an unreleased film and leaked it), they are in violation of that contract and should pay the fees dictated in their contract. To argue that all parties everywhere should be fo…

I like your idea, but it's hardly the case currently.

If you find a book on the ground, or read it in a library, or learn of its contents any number of ways without entering into even an implicit contract with the copyright holder, you are not then entitled to publish the contents without limit.