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Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

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Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#381

Post by Mindwipe »

antoncohen wrote: post #122
Findus23 wrote: post #97

I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…

> International websites have to respect local laws. No way. If I, a US citizen, publish a website hosted in the US that is critical of the Turkish president, should a Turkish court be able to compel me to take it down or block access from Turkey? What if I'm Israeli and I publish open source software, source and binary hosted in Israel, that is against US hacking laws. Should a US court be able to order an Israeli t…

Well bad news. The world doesn't and has never worked in the way you want it to.

Countries generally find enforcing their laws against entities with nothing inside their borders at all a bit more hassle than it's worth, but it has never, ever been the case that they can't.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#382

Post by Iv »

dsacco wrote: post #5

Can someone in Germany confirm this block is actually in place? In any case, if anyone in Germany would like to access Project Gutenberg, I maintain a full, daily updated mirror here: https://mirrors.sorengard.com/gutenberg . I also support FTP and Rsync if you’d like to download that way. No donations are asked for, but it would be helpful if more people hosted mirrors for precisely this reason :). Unfortunately thi…

How big is the data?

I think that is also a good case for hosting this on ZeroNet, the internet as it should be : P2P and decentralized.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#383

Post by _fizz_buzz_ »

dsacco wrote: post #5

Can someone in Germany confirm this block is actually in place? In any case, if anyone in Germany would like to access Project Gutenberg, I maintain a full, daily updated mirror here: https://mirrors.sorengard.com/gutenberg . I also support FTP and Rsync if you’d like to download that way. No donations are asked for, but it would be helpful if more people hosted mirrors for precisely this reason :). Unfortunately thi…

It still works for me and I can access the content of books. My provider is unitymedia.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#384

Post by Mindwipe »

greenyoda wrote: post #106
Findus23 wrote: post #97

I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…

> "International websites have to respect local laws." German companies operating in the US need to respect US law. As the article noted: "Q: Why did this all take place in the German Court system, rather than the US - where Plaintiff does business as Macmillan, and PGLAF is based? A: The legal guidance PGLAF received is that US law requires that such proceedings would have taken place in the US, and in fact any atte…

I have to be blunt here, whomever is giving PGLAF legal advice here almost certainly did not advise that last paragraph, because there is abundant precedent that it's incorrect.

In addition, EU copyright harmonisation means that the publisher would succeed in this case in every country in the EU (or just getting the judgement from the German court carried up to the European court). Will PGLAF block the entire EU when that happens?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#385

Post by Mindwipe »

swimfar wrote: post #161
Xylakant wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> law that extends the copyright length to 2100 years, creating court orders for the 1 billion people who own a Bible or other old text without paying license fees, and collecting all the money in the world? Generally speaking: Nothing. Practically speaking: Impossibility to enforce unless you’re a major power. Look how american laws often get enforced world wide while North Korean law doesn’t practically matter.

This is a sincere question. What American laws are enforced outside the US?

It's pretty common for US copyright law to be enforced outside in the EU as the term can be longer (the US term can occasionally be longer if the author died at the correct time).

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#386

Post by robjwells »

piotrkaminski wrote: post #244
robjwells wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws I think this is an untenable position as it would mean that any website, published from any country, hosted on servers in any country, would have to abide by the laws of the world’s 193 countries. Project Gutenberg’s argument is that they are only a US concern — everyone involved officially is in the US, and th…

> This is distinct from, say, a company explicitly providing a service to customers in a particular country (cf GDPR). In what ways do you think the GDPR is distinct from the laws in the present case? Let's say, for argument's sake, that gutenberg.org starts capturing PII about visitors and storing it without conforming to the GDPR. Do you think it would be fair for the EU to sue them and (attempt to) enforce their l…

(Starting with the caveat that I’m not hugely well-versed in the GDPR:)

I think that actively soliciting personal data from people (wherever they may be) and collecting or processing it entails a higher level of responsibility. The GDPR in that situation effectively says: if you want to collect or process data on EU citizens you have to follow some rules.

I don’t believe that simply publishing a document online, for anyone who may wish to see it, has that “active character.”

However, others have pointed out that offering the Gutenberg website in a German translation is a similar act. I do think this is arguable, and this point does appear in the court ruling:

> “Apart from that, the first defendant’s website is also intended to target German users. This is supported by the fact that the website is partially in German, that the site offers German-language works, and that the first defendant explicitly strives to make the works available globally” [from the English translation]

However, going back to my point earlier, my concern is with the idea of making the website “publicly accessible in Germany.” I think there is a disconnect here between the understanding of traditional publishing (where it takes effort to publish abroad) and internet publishing (where it takes effort to prevent access from abroad).

I worry about the chilling effect of such a ruling. Should I, out of an abundance of caution, only make my blog available to readers in the UK (where I am, and where my blog is hosted)? I think it is easy to see what the effects of such a ruling could be, and (take to their logical conclusion) would have a severely detrimental effect on information exchange via the internet.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#387

Post by gnud »

IMSLP should follow suit, instead of taking any chances, until German courts come to their senses about jurisdiction.

(For those who don't know, IMSLP hosts a lot of sheet music scans that are out of copyright in canada, and not in the EU).

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#388

Post by robjwells »

Mindwipe wrote: post #377
robjwells wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws I think this is an untenable position as it would mean that any website, published from any country, hosted on servers in any country, would have to abide by the laws of the world’s 193 countries. Project Gutenberg’s argument is that they are only a US concern — everyone involved officially is in the US, and th…

This is the case, and has always been the case. It is pretty common for people to sue international publications for libel in the UK under UK libel laws on the basis that the site has British readers. The US decided to unilaterally breach it's treaty provisions on that front and doesn't enforce British libel judgements (you may think this is a good thing, but that is what actually happened), but notably if you ever v…

Yes, that’s a good point (and, as someone who works in newspapers, something I’m well acquainted with).

Perhaps my original comment was too simplistic; it is a thorny issue.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#389

Post by stordoff »

abalone wrote: post #182
tdons wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your IP Address is Blocked from www.gutenberg.org We apologize for this inconvenience. Your IP address has been automatically blocked from the address you tried to visit at www.gutenberg.org. This is because the geoIP database shows your address is in the country of Germany. Diagnostic information: Your IP address: Referrer URL (if available): http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/latest-covers Time (GMT): Saturday, 03-Mar-…

> A Court in Germany ordered that access to certain items in the Project Gutenberg collection are blocked from Germany... until the issue is resolved during appeal, [Project Gutenberg] will comply. This is really misleading. It implies -- nay, outright states -- that Gutenberg is merely complying with the court order. But the court did not order the entire site to be blocked. A more candid answer is found in their in…

As the block page states, the court order states that certain items must be blocked - it does not specify the means by which it must be accomplished. Blocking German IPs is the simplest way to achieve that.
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