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Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

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Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech does not pay for experience. A new grad's compensation is often equal and some times greater than someone who's been in the trenches for 20 years. I don't know any other profession with this absurd inversion. And with a few notable exceptions, the idea that someone with 5 years of experience is Senior-anything is ridiculous. I remember myself at 5 years out, I didn't know shit compared to today. Yet, adjusted fo…

I've definitely been part of a hiring process where "over-experienced" gets thrown around a lot. Here's stuff that comes up all the time: - The main and probably unfair assumption that they will want more money and special treatment for the same amount of grunt work. - They will not respect the (majority 20-something) peers and will try to subtly enforce seniority (again, unfair). - They will refuse to do grunt work…

> If they were truly experienced, they would be getting poached or going through a headhunter.

Huh, is that very common?

As someone with 10 years of experience but very little job-hopping (perhaps to my detriment) I always had this feeling that recruiters were a bit like dodgy car salesman, and that a direct application would be better.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#382
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then where are all the "vocational" CS programs at universities?

Canada has ‘software engineering’ degrees which are essentially vocational CS degrees.

Which Canadian schools have software engineering degrees which are vocational?

Note that my degree is from a well-reputed Canadian school that has a "software engineering specialization", and as far as I can tell (though I did not take it) that specialization is indistinguishable from the main CS curriculum, and is not valid vocational training.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#383
post #27

>Companies find it incredibly hard to reliably staff positions with hard-working generalists who operate autonomously and have high risk tolerances. This is not the modal employee, including at places which are justifiably proud of the skill/diligence/etc of their employees. I'm not sure if he's saying these hard-working generalists are hard to find, or undesirable to employ?

Both. If they're hard to find, then it doesn't make sense to model your organisation in such a way that it relies on such people. Which in turn means that if you find one, you're not going to hire them.

As a corollary: I'm a developer who likes talking to and working with customers, doing UX research, etc. However, since the idea (which may or may not be correct) is that most programmers would rather work by themselves or at least have a project manager or something shield them from the customer, I'm unlikely to be able to find a job in which I can combine programming with customer interaction, even though I'm convinced that this could be valuable. But: only if an organisation is amenable to it.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things wrong with this perspective. First, if you walk out of a four year degree in computer science without a strong foundation in discrete mathematics, algorithms, data structures, and at least one of distributed systems theory, stochastic systems theory, control, statistics/machine learning, AI, data visualization, or design, you've stunted your horizons for growth as an engineer pretty badly. I use…

Well, not that it matters to my argument, but I did go to university, and did well (in the academic sense - much of my time would probably have been better spent drinking and networking rather than getting good grades). Personally I think it was an incredible waste of time. Even though I worked incredibly hard in many diverse subject areas, most of what I learned was taught at such an abstract level as to be complete…

First, you should know that the "barrier of connections and money" you talk about does not apply everywhere. Actually, a lot of universities are free so long as you prove you are smart enough through entry exams. So while it still is used as a class filter everywhere, realize that there is equal chance in a lot of countries to get into any university.

Secondly, universities are not meant to prepare you for a better salary or job. They are meant to give you a particular set of skills and knowledge from a field of work. Finishing means that you usually get access to a certain community with the same specialty. This is useful if you want to keep up to date with your field or publish new findings.

Software companies that require computer scientists usually are just full of it and they forget that there are other universities that prepare people for software engineering or even just programming. You could argue that a course or bootcamp is enough. But we already know they ask for too much when you look at the requirements they have. They aim for the best and then take what they are given.

I think universities are too easy nowadays to let people in. During my father's time, there were around 10 slots for the arts university in my country each year. All of them ended being praised artists. Actually, national news are made when each one of them pass away.

Now, universities just take everyone, especially if they pay for a slot. This caused a shift into perspective. You are no longer hard-working or lucky to get into a university, you are now expected to get into one to prove you are not a complete moron.

This is the actual problem, and it is reflected in your arguments. I agree, you probably didn't need to go to university. Hell, I know that I didn't need to go through mine. However, we were both expected to, and for no good reason.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#385
>Your idea is not valuable, at all. All value is in the execution. You think you are an exception; you are not. You should not insist on an NDA to talk about it; nobody serious will engage in contract review over an idea, and this will mark you as clueless.

John Carmack is unusually direct and asserts pretty much the same things a couple of weeks back. [1]

>This will never, ever work. Nobody will build your game idea and give you money for it. If you go through the development process, you will find that the original idea is a very small fraction of the value.

[1] https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/931653803199275008

Edit: typo s/in/is

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#386
post #3

> CS programs have, in the main, not decided that the primary path to becoming a programmer should involve doing material actual programming. Well, that's because CS programs are designed to teach CS, not to be a vocational school for programmers.

I would claim there is a significant portion of population for whom empirical teaching of CS would be far more kind and efficient than going through the Djisktraist pure theory route. Even Djisktra began with writing actual programs until he grogged how to think about it and then moved to pure theory.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#387
> There is no hidden reserve of smart people who know what they're doing, anywhere. Not in government, not in science, not in tech, not at AppAmaGooBookSoft, nowhere. The world exists in the same glorious imperfection that it presents with.

This is painfully true. I so often hoped someone will explain some Linux stuff to me but... strace it is :)

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#388

> Companies find it incredibly hard to reliably staff positions with hard-working generalists who operate autonomously and have high risk tolerances. This is not the modal employee, including at places which are justifiably proud of the skill/diligence/etc of their employees. This one. Every job I see when I go looking is 40+ hrs a week, likely with plenty of idle time and projects I don't believe in. Part of this is…

I think you framed your anecdotal evidence as supporting the OP's statement, but also that you misunderstood such statement; and you actually present evidence against it. If companies find it hard to reliably staff generalist positions, _and_ you're a generalist as you claim, then you would find it _easy_ to get a job.

It's strange, but I think at least some companies find it hard to staff positions, while also at the same time ignoring/rejecting suitable candidates.

Case in point - I'm a generalist who can very credibly claim very significant expertise at two disconnected areas (compilers and distributed systems), plus some startup/ product management expertise. I saw a job listing here for a startup that needed both of these and claimed they're looking for remote work - so, even though I'm not actively looking for a job, I wrote them; the match between my skills and their needs seemed too good to be true.

They wrote back the standard rejection mail - didn't even try to talk to me. I thought that maybe they found someone else, but no, they still advertise the position. I know it sounds arrogant, but there's no chance in hell they can find many better candidates (I doubt that they can find even one, but well, good luck).

Are their recruiters uniquely ignorant? Unlikely. I think many companies do a lousy effort on recruiting, and then wonder why they can't fill the positions. One of the reasons "internal referrals" work so well is that the candidates are at least seriously considered.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#389

>Your idea is not valuable, at all. All value is in the execution. You think you are an exception; you are not. You should not insist on an NDA to talk about it; nobody serious will engage in contract review over an idea, and this will mark you as clueless. John Carmack is unusually direct and asserts pretty much the same things a couple of weeks back. [1] >This will never, ever work. Nobody will build your game idea…

I agree and disagree with this one. Of course, no one is going to pay money for your game idea, but there are ideas which require an NDA. Those ideas typically take years of development and a person with such an idea would be able to present hundreds of pages of alternate designs and their pros/cons. For example, if I have a design for a 3mm x 1mm mechanism that can actuate a rod by 2mm and I know what kind of power consumption said mechanism will have, that design might be expressible on a single piece of paper, and be worth millions of dollars.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#390
post #3

> CS programs have, in the main, not decided that the primary path to becoming a programmer should involve doing material actual programming. Well, that's because CS programs are designed to teach CS, not to be a vocational school for programmers.

Nostalgia: I really love the 60s definition of CS at Stanford, which seems more inclusive of practical aspects than the theoretical bent of today:

"I consider computer science to be the art and science of exploiting automatic digital computers, and of creating the technology necessary to understand their use. It deals with such related problems as the design of better machines using known components, the design and implementation of adequate software systems for communication between man and machine, and the design and analysis of methods of representing information by abstract symbols and of processes for manipulating these symbols. Computer science must also concern itself with such theoretical subjects supporting this technology as information theory, the logic of the finitely constructable, numerical mathematical analysis, and the psychology of problem solving. Naturally, these theoretical subjects are shared by computer science with such disciplines as philosophy, mathematics, and psychology."

http://i.stanford.edu/pub/cstr/reports/cs/tr/65/26/CS-TR-65-...

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