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Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

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Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#381
post #106

I think the hypothetical that people like me on the left need to consider is the following. Our current vice president is extremely anti-abortion. It's no stretch of the imagination to see that portion of the country growing in strength to be there dominant view in power within ten years. In their view abortion doctors are literal baby killers, websites arguing the benefits of abortion are literally advocating the ki…

> If you set the standard at "ban everything that the populace deems to be as bad as Hitler" then today we get rid of Nazi sites and tell KKK members they can't use our gyms, but tomorrow who will be condemned? You should count the number of bombings of abortion clinics over the last decade or two, count the number of laws restricting access to abortion in the last 5, and then decide whether inaction today will preve…

On the other hand you have people who are not materially threatened by white nationalism deciding to kick the hornets nest because they're in a bad mood. That was bullshit and should be condemned. The far right's persecution complex is directly tied to their violence and oppression against more vulnerable groups, so when some tech CEO validates that complex needlessly it really is counterproductive and harmful. The position of "don't pull this bullshit because it comes back on us" is not abstract, although the people who pulled the bullshit might not be the ones who see it come back around.

Ideological consistency and abstract virtue are things for the far-left/right almost by definition. If a centrist is protesting or standing around doing nothing it's for another reason. That might span from "actually believes it protects peoples' material safety better" to "is completely clueless" or "doesn't want to speak up and face extermination themselves", etc. You're basically calling it virtue signalling but that is often just a way to dismiss someone's authentic concerns or motivation.

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The missing distinction here is between a public utility with monopoly privileges (more like Google) and just some business (GoDaddy or some gym). Nazis should be able to use public utilities, but the thing is, if we decide Google is a public utility, then so should communists, pornographers, drug dealers, criminal gangs, et al. And in fact, great, let's do that! Let's pass those statutes, let's break up the internet…

The problem is what happens in the meantime, when Google is effectively a public utility but not regulated as one.

A grand unity coalition of leftist and rightist activists gather together to push for public utility classification together?

(I know, I know, but God forbid we all admit when we really do have common goals?)

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is trying to give the government power to censor. Everyone is saying that private companies have no moral obligation to materially support neo-Nazis. Yes, there are concerns about concentrated, oligopolistic markets, but those are solved by breaking up the major players -- not by legislating some requirement of fair service for literal swastika-waving, Roman-saluting Nazis . People are not entitled to claim fr…

In a bit of irony The Communist Party is illegal in the US. Communist Control Act, 50 U.S. Code § 841 >The Congress finds and declares that the Communist Party of the United States, although purportedly a political party, is in fact an instrumentality of a conspiracy to overthrow the Government of the United States. It constitutes an authoritarian dictatorship within a republic, demanding for itself the rights and pr…

That's actually more-or-less my point. All this high-minded talk about Freedom of Speech isn't all that high-minded at all. Somehow it always leaves aside the fact that the Left is always repressed with state power and vigilante violence, and the Right (at least, the non-Nazi Right) always gets to switch out philosophies like a damned shell game to justify whatever it wants.

If we stand for the "right" of Nazis to compel private actors to do business with them (and holy shit does that violate the typical libertarian-capitalist positions of the American Right!), why don't we stand for the actual right of Communists, revolutionary socialists, democratic socialists, and anarchists to operate openly at all?

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you call racism a political belief?

No, but it's closely upstream of certain political beliefs and the Left has attacked our ability to talk sensibly about these issues by conflating the two. I assume that you will agree that racism has two common definitions[1]: 1. a belief about facts: that there are distinct human subspecies that differ biologically from each other in various ways 2. a description of behaviour: favouring one human subspecies over an…

Boilerplate ideological talking points are off topic on Hacker News. We ban accounts that people create for that purpose and have banned this one. Would you please not create such accounts here?

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

um, why is this being downvoted? does anyone seriously want to live in a censored world? seriously? man, we're more doomed than I thought :(

Certainly, a lot of people want to live in a censored world, as long as they agree with the censors.

because... they can't handle being offended? are people really that delicate?

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is trying to give the government power to censor. Everyone is saying that private companies have no moral obligation to materially support neo-Nazis. Yes, there are concerns about concentrated, oligopolistic markets, but those are solved by breaking up the major players -- not by legislating some requirement of fair service for literal swastika-waving, Roman-saluting Nazis . People are not entitled to claim fr…

In a bit of irony The Communist Party is illegal in the US. Communist Control Act, 50 U.S. Code § 841 >The Congress finds and declares that the Communist Party of the United States, although purportedly a political party, is in fact an instrumentality of a conspiracy to overthrow the Government of the United States. It constitutes an authoritarian dictatorship within a republic, demanding for itself the rights and pr…

> In a bit of irony The Communist Party is illegal in the US

AFAICT, while the near total lack of government enforcement (and lack of appeals in the few relevant cases that have gone to court) have prevented many or high-level court decisions on the overall constitutionality of the Communist Control Act, the only federal court to rule on that issue ruled it unconstitutional, and the only Supreme Court decision relating to the Act held that the Act did not prevent the Communist Party from participating in the New York State unemployment scheme.

So, it's not clear to me that the Communist Control Act has any substantive legal force, and it's pretty clear that whatever it seems to say on its face, the force it does have is not actually outlawing the Communist Party.

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#387
Google's recent crackdown on alternative viewpoints appears to have also been coordinated across other tech monopolies. From American Renaissance:

"""

Since the Charlottesville rally last weekend, American Renaissance has been under attack. Internet giants from PayPal to Facebook are trying to squeeze us out.

PayPal has cut us off, which means for now we can no longer take donations or sell books by credit card or any electronic means. All our recurring monthly donations—which are the predictable cash flow we count on and plan around—have stopped.

Facebook has blocked the AmRen account for seven days with a warning that if we violate their vague “terms of service” it will close us down for good.

MailChimp, which is the service we use to reach supporters by email, has cut us off completely. Our Twitter accounts—with a total of more than 60,000 followers—could be next, and our YouTube channel, with 35,000 subscribers and millions of views, is just as vulnerable.

As you know, American Renaissance had nothing to do with Charlottesville, and for all its 27 years, AmRen has consistently repudiated violence. This doesn’t matter. Corporate America is stamping out our revenue sources and trying to block our access to the public.

If this continues, AmRen.com could be kicked completely off the internet.

We cannot go back to the pre-internet days. With your help, we will find alternative platforms and, if need be, take legal action.

This is a historic moment in our movement. We are being silenced because we are winning. We are winning because we cannot be refuted. We cannot be refuted because we are right!

Please, give us the means to keep our voice heard.

At this point we can take only checks, money orders and cash; no electronic or credit cards.

Please send your donation made out to:

"""

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#388
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you set the standard at "ban everything that the populace deems to be as bad as Hitler" then today we get rid of Nazi sites and tell KKK members they can't use our gyms, but tomorrow who will be condemned? You should count the number of bombings of abortion clinics over the last decade or two, count the number of laws restricting access to abortion in the last 5, and then decide whether inaction today will preve…

On the other hand you have people who are not materially threatened by white nationalism deciding to kick the hornets nest because they're in a bad mood. That was bullshit and should be condemned. The far right's persecution complex is directly tied to their violence and oppression against more vulnerable groups, so when some tech CEO validates that complex needlessly it really is counterproductive and harmful. The p…

> The far right's persecution complex is directly tied to their violence and oppression against more vulnerable groups, so when some tech CEO validates that complex needlessly it really is counterproductive and harmful.

The far right has had a persecution complex for decades. It is a self sustaining social phenomenon. Again, there's this extravagant counterfactual claim that if no one materially opposed the nazis, the nazis wouldn't be as nazi as they are, which is such an extraordinary claim that it requires extraordinary evidence which is never provided. It is always stated blithely as some sort of obvious truth.

Nazis have already validated their persecution complexes. They are already fully invested in it. That's what got them to dress up as nazis and march about being a nazi and screaming "jews will not replace us". You're literally just repeating the same argument I called into question as if you have supported it with any new facts.

> Ideological consistency and abstract virtue are things for the far-left/right almost by definition.

Oh god please read a history book [1] [2]. Ideological inconsistency and irrationality are hallmarks of fascism. Both Nazis in Germany and Fascists in Italy constantly changed their beliefs and allegiances. They never at any particular moment had a cogent internally consistent ideology let alone an externally consistent one. The only predictable thing about fascism is it's brutality once it has triumphed over those who oppose it. And, historically speaking (please read a book), that triumph occurs because centrists actively sabotage their opponents and stand aside while they entrench their power.

Like, you literally don't know what you're talking about. That is what's so absolutely frustrating about centrists. They presume that they know either by osmosis, pop history, or the propagandistic pseudo-history that's taught in secondary school how these political movements happen. You actually don't know how fascism works but the ideological structure of the west has put it in your mind that you do know, and you know exactly how to combat it, and that so happens to be milquetoast support for vague principles and the status quo.

It's so frustrating because it's so easy to just pick up a decent secondary source and actually gain a detailed, coherent view of the early 20th century which A) provides a real, actual, empirical model for the behavior of fascism and how it was resisted; and B) a parallel history that can be checked to see what is the same and what is different about material conditions this time around.

Now you might want to completely dismiss me because of my combative tone that clearly confirms to yourself what you already knew: that those damned people who hold to a political position outside the Overton window are a bunch of fatuous lunatics who should be dismissed. But at least look at these books that are written by extremely reputable and rigorous scholars. On many things I think it is obnoxious to dismiss a discussion with a demand that the other be more educated, but on this particular subject I need to make my position clear. I'm only aggressive about this because I think it's the most important conversation of our generation and currently it is an exact repeat of the conversation that led up to the very worst terror in human history. The only ingredient missing that really propelled the Nazis rise to power (they languished for about a decade before they really started picking up steam) is a global economic crisis. I wonder when the next one will come?

As an example of how much events today rhyme with events then, Lügenpresse [3].

[1] Robert Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism. Relatively recent book with universal acclaim from all across the political spectrum, from socialists, liberals, and conservatives.

https://libcom.org/files/Robert%20O.%20Paxton-The%20Anatomy%...

[2] Hanah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism. It's an older book and it has a perspective attractive to centrists that tries to establish common patterns between Stalinism and fascism. That approach is considered more tenuous these days but it's still good scholarship for its historical account of, for example the development of biological racism at the time. Biggest downside is that she does not really consider economic or technological factors as much.

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press

[4] Bonus link. Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism. Short essay but deep. I like to read it from time to time. Fascism is a paradoxically subtle and brutal thing. Umberto's essay really grasps that.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#389
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On occasion I have the impression that all my recent comments have been downvoted by 1 in a short span of time. Not that HN karma matters, but it's very well possible that that is already going on.

Yep. There are a lot of HNers who abuse the voting system and leave no traces (no arguments, no reasons). It's quite a childish behavior. The only civic discussion forum I know of is the extropy chat email list.

For the topics it covers, the discussion at SlateStarCodex.com and its matching reddit are of extremely high quality, both in terms of the thought that goes into comments, as well as the civility of participants.

Re: Google's stance on neo-Nazis 'dangerous', says EFF

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't even imagine how stressful it must be to enter into this kind of conversation when English isn't your first language. I feel for you. What I meant was that the meaning of terms like "white supremacist" and "racist" has changed dramatically in recent years. To the point where it's very difficult to speak clearly about these types of things.

I realized that even here I wasn't very clear. What I was saying was that you shouldn't have to say that you don't support racists before every single statement. But because of how our language has shifted, you now have to, and it's unfortunate.

I don't think this is a language problem at all. It's because of a stupid binary us vs them mindset. Any time you offer a criticism, it's automatically perceived as support of the other tribe. Any admission that your own tribe might not be as pure as the new-fallen snow, or that the other tribe isn't always completely evil, is enough to brand someone as a pariah.

As long as we keep up this attitude, we're going to continue - and deepen our political divides.

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