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Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

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Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#381

Post by stale2002 »

SolarNet wrote: post #315
blhack wrote: post #229

Coinbase is in a bad situation here. If they set a precedent that all BTC forks will be available to their users, then they open themselves to some pretty obvious DOS attacks. 10 new "bitcoins" could fork every day. Are we really going to expect coinbase to support them all? That's absurd. I think it's pretty obvious that they're going to just issue the BCH to people eventually. Here's another thought experiment: I a…

> 10 new "bitcoins" could fork every day Not really. You are forgetting how the difficulty works (or simply don't understand bitcoin). You'd have to have a significant percentage of the bitcoin mining infrastructure. If you have 1% of the bitcoin mining infrastructure it would take 100x the time to mine a block, or 1000 mins, or basically half a day, that would take a week of not getting bitcoin simply to confirm the…

No it wouldn't. All you have to do is change the proof of work algorithm.

Bitcoin Cash literally did thus, by reducing the the difficulty.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#382

Post by wolco »

zeroxfe wrote: post #253
blhack wrote: post #229

Coinbase is in a bad situation here. If they set a precedent that all BTC forks will be available to their users, then they open themselves to some pretty obvious DOS attacks. 10 new "bitcoins" could fork every day. Are we really going to expect coinbase to support them all? That's absurd. I think it's pretty obvious that they're going to just issue the BCH to people eventually. Here's another thought experiment: I a…

> 10 new "bitcoins" could fork every day. Are we really going to expect coinbase to support them all? That's absurd. Of course it's absurd, and nobody expects them to support 10 forks a day. If that was actually happening, Coinbase would be in a much better position to say no. But this is a single fork, and one where the new currency has a lot of value, enough that customers are threatening to sue.

Anyone can sue but therr is no case. You are responsible for who you let hold your coins. If someone gives everyone who is holding a coin a new coin whoever is holding your coin doesn't have to accept it; Unless you agreed beforehand. In this case they told you before they will not accept it and you still left the coins with them.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#383

Post by erikpukinskis »

dsacco wrote: post #294
modeless wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you draw the line though? Anyone can invent new tokens and grant them to bitcoin holders; should Coinbase be required to support every one? This is not a hypothetical question. I particpated in two airdrops this year, Stellar and Byteball. I immediately sold the airdropped tokens and increased my bitcoin holdings by 3%. But I don't think Coinbase should be required to support Stellar or Byteball just because…

Yes, Coinbase should be required to support disbursal for every one, with the proviso that it either passes a certain price or passes a number of customers who want to withdraw it.

Why? By using Coinbase you are saying, "I don't want to hold any bitcoins myself, I want a bank to hold some value, denominated in BTC, on my behalf". For all depositers care, Coinbase might have zero Bitcoins issued before the fork.

It's like depositing a dollar to a bank, and then finding out that it had been signed by Andy Warhol in invisible ink and asking for the specific dollar back. Sorry, you shouldn't have deposited in a bank. You can get a dollar back, but not the same one you deposited.

What you're looking for is more like a safety deposit box for Bitcoins. That's a whole separate product, with a different fee structure.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#384

Post by Akarnani »

blhack wrote: post #229

Coinbase is in a bad situation here. If they set a precedent that all BTC forks will be available to their users, then they open themselves to some pretty obvious DOS attacks. 10 new "bitcoins" could fork every day. Are we really going to expect coinbase to support them all? That's absurd. I think it's pretty obvious that they're going to just issue the BCH to people eventually. Here's another thought experiment: I a…

There's logic in these arguments; however, they ignore securities laws.

If BTC is a security, which the regulators probably think it is, then yes—you have to have a mechanism to bring concepts like splits, tenders, dividends to holders of the security if you are going to hold them for their benefit.

Developers considering forks will likely be required to follow yet unclarified rules around how much, how often, waiting and disclosure periods, etc.

(It's useful to consider how rules and systems have evolved governing how often Apple can split its stock or how Facebook investors are notified about tender offers, etc.)

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#385

Post by Akarnani »

Akarnani wrote: post #384
blhack wrote: post #229

Coinbase is in a bad situation here. If they set a precedent that all BTC forks will be available to their users, then they open themselves to some pretty obvious DOS attacks. 10 new "bitcoins" could fork every day. Are we really going to expect coinbase to support them all? That's absurd. I think it's pretty obvious that they're going to just issue the BCH to people eventually. Here's another thought experiment: I a…

There's logic in these arguments; however, they ignore securities laws. If BTC is a security, which the regulators probably think it is, then yes—you have to have a mechanism to bring concepts like splits, tenders, dividends to holders of the security if you are going to hold them for their benefit. Developers considering forks will likely be required to follow yet unclarified rules around how much, how often, waitin…

This article is an entertaining read on that considers some of the issues discussed in this thread:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-02/bitcoin-e...

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#386

Post by csours »

0xffff2 wrote: post #366
duderific wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heck, you can see this in US coinage today. A quarter feels like about half the weight it was when I was a kid. The cost of the metal gets to a point where it doesn't make sense to use it in the currency anymore. For example, if the metal in a quarter was worth more than $.25, you could simply melt it down and sell it for more than the face value (assuming the cost of melting etc. could be brought down at volume).

> A quarter feels like about half the weight it was when I was a kid. I felt the same, but as far as I can tell the current quarter composition weighs 84% as much as the heaviest quarter ever produced and 90% as much as any quarter made since 1873. The quarter's composition has only changed three times in the history of the United States.

You were also smaller when you were younger...

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#387

Post by newman8r »

mrighele wrote: post #349
dsacco wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the price, an exchange cannot seize customer assets by giving them 10 days notice for withdrawal. It doesn't matter if it's a separate currency - we have things resembling this in public markets, like stock splits. It doesn't matter if everyone can fork the cryptocurrency, that doesn't change the principle of a customer's asset. What Coinbase should have done is this: 1. Stood their ground on not suppor…

I think about it in a different way. The fact that a certain amount of BTC is also the same amount of BCC is tied to a specific way of owning bitcoins (i.e. "physical" bitcoins in a wallet). But when you buy a certain amount of BTC on coinbase, you will just buy that abstract amount, there is no wallet tied to you, in the same way that when you have money in a bank you don't own any specific bill. The bank may not ev…

That's a fair analogy. I think implementing the features some people are asking for creates a myriad of additional issues that should be individually considered.

Dealing with this on a case-by case basis (as they seem to be doing) makes more sense.

It might have been nice if they gave more advanced notice, but in my opinion they shouldn't be expected to give ANY notice of this type of thing.

I think they're handling it well.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#388

Post by source99 »

danmaz74 wrote: post #370
bdcravens wrote: post #228

Big point to remember: the current high price is artificial. There are only a few exchanges selling BCH, and they aren't accepting deposits. The only sellers are those who had BTC there prior to August 1. So it's a sellers market. There's a ton of demand to sell. Once those deposits are enabled, you'll see a flood of dumping, and the price will crash. So let's say Coinbase allows BCH withdrawals. Unless they enabled…

> the current high price is artificial. That's absolutely clear to me, and I was dying to find a way to short it. I just found out that plus500 allows that... I don't like that platform, but I just placed my shorts (even if now it's "only" $500)

FYI this site(plus500) is not accessible from the USA

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#389

Post by spraak »

modeless wrote: post #267
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of the btc nouveaux rich, help me understand something I see reoccurring among my other btc-rich friends. Generally, when you're up big (and in some cases extremely wealthy), you diversify your investments in order to preserver your wealth. However, almost without exception my btc friends are such believers that they are holding on for the ride forever. Is it just that the risk-averse were initially drawn to b…

Personally, I'm not "extremely wealthy", but I'm certainly holding a larger percentage of my net worth in bitcoin than is prudent. However, I sold enough to make back my initial investment long ago; if it crashes to zero tomorrow I won't be ruined. I'm not holding bitcoins as a matter of principle. I have a number in mind, and if I hit it I will have enough money to retire at 35. At that point I plan to sell ~90% of…

Wow, I'd love some advice on getting there. I've found myself in cycles of debt for the past many years.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#390

Post by blhack »

Akarnani wrote: post #384
blhack wrote: post #229

Coinbase is in a bad situation here. If they set a precedent that all BTC forks will be available to their users, then they open themselves to some pretty obvious DOS attacks. 10 new "bitcoins" could fork every day. Are we really going to expect coinbase to support them all? That's absurd. I think it's pretty obvious that they're going to just issue the BCH to people eventually. Here's another thought experiment: I a…

There's logic in these arguments; however, they ignore securities laws. If BTC is a security, which the regulators probably think it is, then yes—you have to have a mechanism to bring concepts like splits, tenders, dividends to holders of the security if you are going to hold them for their benefit. Developers considering forks will likely be required to follow yet unclarified rules around how much, how often, waitin…

It's interesting to think about a fork as a stock split, because there is no entity to decide on a split happening.

It's really a 3rd party issuing tokens based on proof of bitcoin ownership.

Definitely going to be some interesting times for financial regulators!

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