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Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

theatlantic.com

381–390 of 439 posts

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#381

I would be interested in seeing more places try posting limits. It's easy for someone to shoot off hundreds of thoughtless messages, but it takes time and effort to make a single thoughtful post. A minority trying to do the former is going to inundate those doing the latter. And for those (probably most of us) who do a bit of both, it's likely that our less thoughtful and more rapid fire output is going to dwarf our…

>I would be interested in seeing more places try posting limits. This was proposed years ago on Reddit: Limit # of votes/posts per user per day. Never implemented...

The problem there is that it is certainly possible to legitimately post hundreds of times a day. I mean yes, someone who posts or votes too much could be a troll. Or they could be a perfectly good, yet exceedingly dedicated community member with a bit much too much free time and a lot of passion for a subject. Limits like those tend to screw over more active users in general.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also worth noting that criminal harassment via the internet is largely a failing of law enforcement, not a failing of the infrastructure of the internet or a sudden arrival of a new species of really mean humans. There are some privacy/free speech issues down this road, but by and large LE have abdicated their responsibilities in this area. And while it's a different discussion all together, I think examining why con…

> LE have abdicated their responsibilities in this area. On the contrary. One of my side-projects is involved with the running an Internet-to-PSTN wake-up-call service. The service is free-to-use in the US (because domestic calling is so cheap) which also means it gets used by criminal-harassers who send wake-up calls at 4am to their targets (we do aggressively rate-limit which helps mitigate these issues). We are fr…

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Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#383
The reason why trolls do what they do is because of people with the mindset of this author. Trolls cannot enjoy the internet because they are browbeaten by someone willing to type an entire article about their own thoughts. It's a deluge of terrible opinions and people with too much time to type them all out. The weapon to defeat that is to give them something ridiculous to rail against, so that their efforts are wasted.

The fact this has worked for such a long time and that just about nobody seemingly has caught on. Means that yes, now there is an entire community of people who do it. It's just part of the internet now and it's growing and it'll continue to get bigger.

Sorry people. I'm not a troll myself, I largely just get off the internet now. But the reason it's bad is because of this author, not trolls.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#384
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely with you. Framing the harassment as "trolling" has been a propagandistic victory for the harassers. Actual trolling is way less worrying. I don't like it and I certainly wouldn't partake in it, but you can actually ignore it. Harassment, not so.

No, it's been a victory for those peddling the fear articles and soliciting victim bucks. It's really simple. First you make outrageous claims, then you define everyone who disagrees as a harasser. Find the one tweet or comment that's a bit off color, and pretend that's representative. Or just false flag it. It's the digital version of how to discredit an opposing view or protest, you just need one person smashing a…

Deciding who's the victim and who the harassers seems quite subjective. Let's say that I hit the beach sidewalk wearing a leather-sack-style thong jockstrap, an 18" Bowie knife, and roller blades. Right out of Wild Boys. But totally legal. And let's say that I attracted a crowd of critics, who felt threatened, and who threatened me. And supporters.

Who would be the victim(s), and who would be the harasser(s)?

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#385
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We absolutely must have democracy and freedom of speech. You're conflating "Freedom of speech" with "The right to be listened to" and "The right to have a platform". The government isn't going to hunt these people down because they have expressed Foo views, nor is, for example, Google. Google, YouTube, Facebook, etc. as private companies are allowed to decide what they do and do not want on their platform (Excludin…

You're conflating "Freedom of speech" with "The right to be listened to" and "The right to have a platform". Those concepts are inherently fuzzy and related in messy ways. Back in the day, AT&T claimed that it had built its long-distance network, and that it was in its rights to exclude others from using it. The effect of this was monopoly, however, so regulators stepped in and new laws were passed. If "de-platformin…

"Those concepts are inherently fuzzy and related in messy ways."

No, they're really not. The one has a strict legal definition and is enshrined in law, and the others don't and aren't.

"But in actuality, de-platforming as practiced on college campuses often results in a group of people too intimidated to talk and too intimidated to attend, contrary to their desires. "

And what about the people who have felt intimidated by the hate speech and haven't attended because of that?

"If "de-platforming" has the effect of censorship, then it might as well be censorship."

But it isn't censorship. That person can speak their views outside of that building. They are only prohibited from having a platform to spread their views. They can still publish a book of them and market it. Nobody has lost any of their rights, unless you're stating that you automatically have a right to enter any building and preach your views. Nobody would get upset if $person was denied entrance to a funeral home for preaching their views there, because we all understand that that is inappropriate behaviour.

A church can expell a person for preaching atheistic views, and nobody gets annoyed. But as soon as someone does it for a white supremacist, a nazi, andor a person preaching for the extermination of certain groups, it's suddenly "against their free speech".

Or, for an even better example, think of twitter as a publishing company. If I go to twitter with a book (tweet), they are not legally obliged to publish it. The fact that they do not wish to publish it, or that they stop publishing it (removal of the tweet), is not an infringement of my free speech. I can start my own publishing company (with pretty much every website host), or go to another publishing company (like /pol/) to have my ideas heard. In addition, people writing to the publisher and stating that my book (tweet) should not be published, because of the views that are held in my book (tweet), that is also not an infringement of my free speech.

If the government decides that what I say is unseemly, and they purge it from all forms of media, from libraries, etc. and state that my views are not to be published, then that is censorship.

[An orthogonal point here is that people like yourself often argue that these people should not be able to write protests to the publisher (twitter). As per your own definition, wouldn't that count as infringement of their free speech? It's interesting how you readily support that views should not be removed, but condone that people should not be allowed to protest against views, or that people should not be allowed to write their point of views in emails and posts about twitter. Surely the right to advocate what you call 'censorship', falls under what you call 'free speech'?]

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're as much a victim here as someone who downloads a tiny executable off a filesharing network and thinks it's the latest movie or game. Or falls for a Nigerian scam. These are accepted facts of the internet. We defend against them. Just as much as publishing your address or information which can be associated to it should be. Precautions are important. You can never rid the world of evil, but you can protect your…

There are people who simply cannot effectively defend themselves. They don't have the knowledge. They're visually disabled. They've got cognitive decline, for whatever reasons. And the scams and attacks keep coming. Generally not trolls, so much, though that can be a thing as well. I'm not completely against there being some wild corners of the Internet (though you might want to take a look at some of danah boyd's re…

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Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#387
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We absolutely must have democracy and freedom of speech. You're conflating "Freedom of speech" with "The right to be listened to" and "The right to have a platform". The government isn't going to hunt these people down because they have expressed Foo views, nor is, for example, Google. Google, YouTube, Facebook, etc. as private companies are allowed to decide what they do and do not want on their platform (Excludin…

There's an inherent contradiction in the arguments here. You can't on the one hand say "people have the right to use Twitter free of harassment" because it's ubiquitous, but then on the other hand say Twitter has the right to censor or ban people whose views it as a company doesn't like. These are contrary positions. Either Twitter is a "common carrier" and thus has the responsibility to ensure its users have a commo…

You're enforcing a false binary here.

Twitter as a private company has the right to remove things that it finds abhorrent, such as hate speech (i.e. stating that jews should be killed, black people should be bred out of existence, etc.).

People can put pressure on twitter to change their policies on what they find abhorrent.

The people with those views can find or create other places to express them.

The argument with 'Twitter as a common carrier' is null and void, because twitter is not an ISP. Twitter clearly falls under "public forum", and is therefore able to state what sort of content it wants to host, and what sort of content it does not. This does not preclude the neonazis finding somewhere else to host their views, like /pol/. Because they can host their views somewhere else, it is not censorship.

Think of it like publishing. If a publishing company does not want to publish my book, that is not censorship. I can go to another publishing company, or start my own. If the government states that what I say is wrong, and enforces a purge of it from all libraries, servers, bookshops, media, etc. then that is censorship.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#388
post #349
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B-b-but how will I growth hack my way to a 4-hour-workweek selling ebooks about how to growth hack, without constant, obnoxious self promotion under my real name on all corners of the Web?! God's sake, I can't possibly be a thought leader anonymously! You savage.

What you just describes is normal capitalist economy. People selling and promoting stuff. If that person is able to make a living with just 4 hours a week work like that, they are pretty skilled. Are you saying it is ok to harass them out of that business just because you are jealous? It is nice example of someone who would be really harmed by leaving.

No, I'm saying there's an inherent conflict between those for whom the "No One Can Tell You're a Dog" Internet is and should be how things work, and those for whom making money under their real name by polluting it with garbage is part of how they do business or build their ridiculous "personal brand" or whatever. For the former, the latter complaining that they're being harassed because they plastered their real world details on every virtual surface they could find comes off as 1) n00btastic and/or 2) entitled whining, and the continued pushes for increased real-name use and harsh moderation from that corner (and the continued intrusion of commercial activity, especially ads and the OMG-we-actually-live-in-a-sci-fi-dystopia spy economy but also marketing trash masquerading as content) represent attacks on the quality and freedom of the Internet.

Just because people get to run around filling the real world with junk to make a buck doesn't mean they're entitled to feel welcome everywhere they might want to do that, or that they can expect to be given a pass on common sense or the norms of the media they seek to degrade. They can console themselves with the fact that they're almost certainly going to win in the long run, I guess, since money always does.

That said: yeah, prosecute actual harassment when possible. "NEVER POST YOUR REAL WOLD DETAILS PUBLICLY ON THE INTERNET" remains and should (but won't) remain excellent advice, however, and I wish more people would follow it, and if they've chosen to ignore it to make money I wish they'd quit trying to make everything worse rather than saying "oh, gee, I ignored that and bad things happened, I guess I should stop ignoring that" (but they won't, because money).

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're as much a victim here as someone who downloads a tiny executable off a filesharing network and thinks it's the latest movie or game. Or falls for a Nigerian scam. These are accepted facts of the internet. We defend against them. Just as much as publishing your address or information which can be associated to it should be. Precautions are important. You can never rid the world of evil, but you can protect your…

There are people who simply cannot effectively defend themselves. They don't have the knowledge. They're visually disabled. They've got cognitive decline, for whatever reasons. And the scams and attacks keep coming. Generally not trolls, so much, though that can be a thing as well. I'm not completely against there being some wild corners of the Internet (though you might want to take a look at some of danah boyd's re…

Then you buffer them. You limit input and output to trusted family, friends and support staff.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're as much a victim here as someone who downloads a tiny executable off a filesharing network and thinks it's the latest movie or game. Or falls for a Nigerian scam. These are accepted facts of the internet. We defend against them. Just as much as publishing your address or information which can be associated to it should be. Precautions are important. You can never rid the world of evil, but you can protect your…

There are people who simply cannot effectively defend themselves. They don't have the knowledge. They're visually disabled. They've got cognitive decline, for whatever reasons. And the scams and attacks keep coming. Generally not trolls, so much, though that can be a thing as well. I'm not completely against there being some wild corners of the Internet (though you might want to take a look at some of danah boyd's re…

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