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Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

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Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#381

Post by Eridrus »

intro-b wrote: post #2

How this is happening, the exact trajectory of how much worse these things are (and its potential to worsen) is somewhat terrifying, especially when you consider the cavalier disregard and easy ignorance that this policy represents. I know classmates and colleagues and friends who are discussing, in their groups and communities, how to best help people stranded, whether or not vacations and returns to see ill family…

Trump is terrible, I wish someone else had been elected, this is clearly xenophobic crap, etc.

But we do this shit all the time. The US' immigration system is byzantine at best.

We deport "illegals" who have lives in the US routinely whose lives are no less worthwhile; Obama did something similar to Cubans coming here right before leaving office, leaving those moving to the US with the expectation that "wet foot dry foot" policy would continue stranded at airports.

We're just all more sympathetic to the MIT student.

Maybe I'm just overly cavalier, but it feels no different from the arbitrariness I have experienced in the US immigration system where random officials may make decisions with no relationship to the law with no grounds for appeal.

This country already makes it ridiculously hard for skilled workers to move here; the optics sure do look shitty though.

I do feel truly sorry for the refugees though, they have nowhere to go back to and are truly in a world of hurt. It saddens me that every country I have called home is so callous to them.

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#382

Post by Eridrus »

rdtsc wrote: post #291
mikeyouse wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, blame the Democrats for not doing what? The Rs control the White House and both branches of congress.

That's the interesting thing, maybe Trump won because he was a smooth talker but why did the Democrats lose all those seats in the legislature? Does it just mean Dems never even voted? I guess why bother putting the shoes on when CNN and NBC have been showing a solid blue map for months on end and experts discussing grabbing of genital parts for days and days. In all the discussions I heard so far on Facebook and med…

The rational thing to do for any single voter is to not bother voting; and the US doesn't make it easy for people to vote, especially with election day not being a weekend or a public holiday and requiring most of the day.

In the US the "blue map" does really matter except psychologically since everyone votes in a specific state, but the predictions from the media probably didn't help.

Hopefully Trump will drive democratic midterm voter turn out.

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#383

Post by justin66 »

erichocean wrote: post #342
mikeash wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual injustices are not new. Wholesale bans of everyone from certain countries are. Both are bad, both deserve to be fought, but they are on completely different levels.

> Wholesale bans of everyone from certain countries are. The actual 120 day ban is bad enough, there's no reason to lie about it. People with green cards/existing visas need to be re-approved, they're not "banned". There's no intention AFAICT to keep people who should be in the US out of the US. FFS people, Trump needs actual opposition, not knee-jerk virtue signaling, hyperbole, and hashtag protests!

> People with green cards/existing visas need to be re-approved, they're not "banned".

A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order, and it sounds like the administration is backpedaling as well, but it's important to note that in the mean time some people with a (previously) legal right to enter the US were turned away because of Trump's recent executive order.

https://www.propublica.org/article/cleveland-clinic-doctor-f...

I guess the tl;dr for that article is “She’s not going to be able to get a visa for at least 90 days”

Careers are sometimes fragile and international flights are expensive. It's not as if none of this idiocy matters.

> FFS people, Trump needs actual opposition, not knee-jerk virtue signaling, hyperbole, and hashtag protests!

This is a deeply stupid comment.

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#384

Post by erichocean »

justin66 wrote: post #383
erichocean wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wholesale bans of everyone from certain countries are. The actual 120 day ban is bad enough, there's no reason to lie about it. People with green cards/existing visas need to be re-approved, they're not "banned". There's no intention AFAICT to keep people who should be in the US out of the US. FFS people, Trump needs actual opposition, not knee-jerk virtue signaling, hyperbole, and hashtag protests!

> People with green cards/existing visas need to be re-approved, they're not "banned". A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order, and it sounds like the administration is backpedaling as well, but it's important to note that in the mean time some people with a (previously) legal right to enter the US were turned away because of Trump's recent executive order. https://www.propublica.org/article/cleveland-cl…

> This is a deeply stupid comment.

The only opposition yesterday worth anything was the ACLU lawsuit, and it was the only thing that actually made any concrete difference in the lives of the people affected.

The rest was just people engaging in fantasy politics in the streets, who got what they wanted by appearing to care in front of their peers—without actually changing, literally, anything at all but their own perception of themselves.

Everything beyond the ACLU lawsuit was either pointless virtue signaling or flat out lies (c.f. #MuslimBan hashtag). But sure, carry on protesting and virtue signaling, we all enjoy Trump running roughshod over the US while idiots live out their fantasy of political action and #Resistance on HN and Twitter.

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#385

Post by appleiigs »

grzm wrote: post #282
appleiigs wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pedantry. We are arguing the definition of "minority" when in this context enough people in the US voted for Trump to make him President.

If you're going to quote statistics to the tenth of a percent, you should also be very comfortable using terms like minority , majority , and plurality appropriately. This doesn't undermine your position at all, or the fact that Trump won the election fairly as the process is defined. Why argue it? It just makes you look unreasonable and needlessly argumentative.

I get your point of not being argumentative. I wonder why HN doesn't show up and down votes. Would be easier to let go of a position if HN would show the actual support of both sides, instead of people replying with the schoolyard "no, you are".

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#386

Post by grzm »

appleiigs wrote: post #385
grzm wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to quote statistics to the tenth of a percent, you should also be very comfortable using terms like minority , majority , and plurality appropriately. This doesn't undermine your position at all, or the fact that Trump won the election fairly as the process is defined. Why argue it? It just makes you look unreasonable and needlessly argumentative.

I get your point of not being argumentative. I wonder why HN doesn't show up and down votes. Would be easier to let go of a position if HN would show the actual support of both sides, instead of people replying with the schoolyard "no, you are".

I think the reason the up and down votes aren't shown publicly is so people don't focus on the votes so much. It shouldn't be a game. I can see how it might be useful.

I've thought about the utility of making flagging (for uncivil, unsubstantive comments) the only way to dim comments. I think people want to be able to express agreement and disagreement separate from whether they think the comment is worthwhile or not, though admittedly the disagreement part is harder to distinguish honestly. In that case seeing the vote count would be useful. I don't know. It's hard to predict how community behavior would change as a result, and whether it would be for the better.

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#387

Post by mikeash »

erichocean wrote: post #384
justin66 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People with green cards/existing visas need to be re-approved, they're not "banned". A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order, and it sounds like the administration is backpedaling as well, but it's important to note that in the mean time some people with a (previously) legal right to enter the US were turned away because of Trump's recent executive order. https://www.propublica.org/article/cleveland-cl…

> This is a deeply stupid comment. The only opposition yesterday worth anything was the ACLU lawsuit, and it was the only thing that actually made any concrete difference in the lives of the people affected. The rest was just people engaging in fantasy politics in the streets, who got what they wanted by appearing to care in front of their peers—without actually changing, literally, anything at all but their own perc…

So, when we complain about stuff on the internet, it's pointless virtue signaling. When you complain about stuff on the internet, it's.... what? Are you just virtue signaling to your group, here?

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#388

Post by erichocean »

justin66 wrote: post #383
erichocean wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wholesale bans of everyone from certain countries are. The actual 120 day ban is bad enough, there's no reason to lie about it. People with green cards/existing visas need to be re-approved, they're not "banned". There's no intention AFAICT to keep people who should be in the US out of the US. FFS people, Trump needs actual opposition, not knee-jerk virtue signaling, hyperbole, and hashtag protests!

> People with green cards/existing visas need to be re-approved, they're not "banned". A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order, and it sounds like the administration is backpedaling as well, but it's important to note that in the mean time some people with a (previously) legal right to enter the US were turned away because of Trump's recent executive order. https://www.propublica.org/article/cleveland-cl…

> but it's important to note that in the mean time some people with a (previously) legal right to enter the US were turned away because of Trump's recent executive order.

This is false. U.S. visas (regardless of type) are different from those issued by other nations. A US visa does not give someone the right to enter the United States, it gives them the right to go to a port of entry (like an airport) and ask for permission to enter the United States.

Trump's order added additional scrutiny for border agents for people with visas from the seven countries. Many (most?) of those people were admitted, and the ACLU suit forced border agents to keep people "in limbo" in the US while that determination was made (vs. sending them back and forcing them to get a new visa—IMO, this is the right decision and I'm happy the courts made it).

But your specific assertion, that they had a legal right to enter the US is false. At best, they had a reasonable expectation that once they arrived, they would be let in without any difficulty or delay.

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#389

Post by erichocean »

mikeash wrote: post #387
erichocean wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a deeply stupid comment. The only opposition yesterday worth anything was the ACLU lawsuit, and it was the only thing that actually made any concrete difference in the lives of the people affected. The rest was just people engaging in fantasy politics in the streets, who got what they wanted by appearing to care in front of their peers—without actually changing, literally, anything at all but their own perc…

So, when we complain about stuff on the internet, it's pointless virtue signaling. When you complain about stuff on the internet, it's.... what? Are you just virtue signaling to your group, here?

I'm talking to people, like yourself, who are normaly sober and rational on HN (and presumably, other places—I like your Objective-C articles, for instance).

It's weird, Trump really has a lot of people "off their game" as it were, and it saddens me because the guy's kind of an idiot. I'd like to see people I respect get their shit together and mount and effective opposition.

Short of talking to them (like I'm doing here), I'm not really sure what else you would expect me to do given my goals.

I am personally not politically active, I don't blog, tweet, or any of that stuff. I rarely even comment on HN.

So yeah: I just want to see the middle/left mount effective opposition. If you don't value my comments, ignore them. :)

Re: Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester

#390

Post by mikeash »

erichocean wrote: post #389
mikeash wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, when we complain about stuff on the internet, it's pointless virtue signaling. When you complain about stuff on the internet, it's.... what? Are you just virtue signaling to your group, here?

I'm talking to people, like yourself, who are normaly sober and rational on HN (and presumably, other places—I like your Objective-C articles, for instance). It's weird, Trump really has a lot of people "off their game" as it were, and it saddens me because the guy's kind of an idiot. I'd like to see people I respect get their shit together and mount and effective opposition. Short of talking to them (like I'm doing…

Could you explain how I'm not being sober and rational here, preferably without using the word "lie" (I'm not intending to deceive, so I am at worst mistaken) or the phrase "virtue signaling" (which is basically a slightly more polite way to say "fuck you" and is not productive)?

What else would I expect you to do? I'd expect you to stop complaining about imaginary slights and insulting people for talking about things that they dislike.

What do you think I should do? You haven't given me any suggestions, just virtually shouted at me for being such a lying asshole. So I should... what? You said the ACLU mounted the only effective opposition, maybe I should donate to them? Well, I did already. Hmm, if I were virtue signaling, wouldn't I put that front and center on everything I write? Hey everybody, look at how virtuous I am, I donated to the ACLU!

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