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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#381

Post by vehementi »

knieveltech wrote: post #327
_audakel wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There simply isn't enough work to go around. Dissagree. Technolgy works best when augmented with humans, however the training needed for ppl (ie truck drivers) may take longer to retool their minds then they have life left. So there may be a generation gap in jobs. Also consider space as the final frontier. How much work will be needed to build fleets of ships to colonize space and all that entails?

Disagree all you want to, the market clearly finds your argument unpersuasive.

Yes, that's the point. "The market" is not a system that is suited for this. The market is not going to get people to make cool paths through parks, clean up the neighbourhood, etc. because the market doesn't derive shareholder profits from that at current wages. That work though is indisputably valuable stuff that could be done. Clearly, we have proven that there is plenty more work to go around and that the market is "wrong" about this.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#382

Post by saryant »

jcoffland wrote: post #356
cesarbs wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…

I don't want to work with you if you're a nine-to-fiver either. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with you for feeling this way but I don't want to work with people who don't love what they do. Edit: to clarify, by nine-to-fiver I mean someone who is just punching the clock in order to make a living but does not care much about what they are doing. I don't really care what hours you work if you're real…

I love my job and what I do for a living.

I also have other things I love to do.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#383

Post by pg314 »

cperciva wrote: post #37
lucideer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, I agree with the overall content of your post. However your first and last sentences really emphasise for me the real problem: oversimplifying and stratifying the discussion. "Nonsense" is an extreme overstatement, there are nuances to both arguments. "This is economics 101" is exactly the problem: we're dealing with an economic system that isn't working. Questioning economics 101 is precisely wha…

"This is economics 101" is exactly the problem: we're dealing with an economic system that isn't working. Questioning economics 101 is precisely what's needed, and I'd argue that while your arguments are sound, they've been treated as absolutes, which they're not. This makes as much sense as saying "You say that my magical spacecraft won't work due to the laws of physics, but physics is exactly the problem: We can't…

Some of the basic premises of a lot of economic theories are questionable. E.g. the homo economicus in many economic theories is a fiction.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#384

Post by pg314 »

hermitdev wrote: post #175
ux-app wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

economics isn't hard science

And economics often operates under the assumption that all actors act rationally and with perfect and complete information, which of course we know is not true. (editted for clarity, grammar and spelling)

For those interested to read more: it's called the homo economicus [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#385

Post by jcoffland »

saryant wrote: post #382
jcoffland wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to work with you if you're a nine-to-fiver either. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with you for feeling this way but I don't want to work with people who don't love what they do. Edit: to clarify, by nine-to-fiver I mean someone who is just punching the clock in order to make a living but does not care much about what they are doing. I don't really care what hours you work if you're real…

I love my job and what I do for a living. I also have other things I love to do.

Great let's work together.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#386

Post by guitarbill »

hardtke wrote: post #325
chadcmulligan wrote: post #136

Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in…

The biggest labor need in the next 40 years will be caring for the elderly. When my father was out of the hospital after an operation and needed live in care it was insanely difficult to find at any cost. This is work that cannot be automated.

After watching Big Hero 6, I'm convinced that even that work could be automated.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#387

Post by jcoffland »

cesarbs wrote: post #364
jcoffland wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to work with you if you're a nine-to-fiver either. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with you for feeling this way but I don't want to work with people who don't love what they do. Edit: to clarify, by nine-to-fiver I mean someone who is just punching the clock in order to make a living but does not care much about what they are doing. I don't really care what hours you work if you're real…

Why the false dichotomy? Can't someone designate a certain amount of time of their day to work, and focus on other things in the remaining hours? I love writing software, but that does not mean I don't love other things. Years ago I lived and breathed software. That's not the case anymore. I'd much rather help my daughter with her homework than read about the latest uber nifty JavaScript transpiler that will change m…

> Working is a means to bring in some cash that enables me to enjoy other things in life.

Because you work mainly for the money is why I would not want to work with you. Not because you like other things.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#388

Post by qplex »

Animats wrote: post #79

We're there already. There are vast numbers of people who cannot make an economic contribution large enough to cover their costs. Education won't help. Teach a human how to do something, and you have one human who can do it. Teach a computer how to do something, and you can have as many computers as needed doing it. The US has already hit "peak school" in terms of economic benefit. About half of college graduates tak…

>There are vast numbers of people who cannot make an economic contribution large enough to cover their costs.

"Economic contribution" is hardly a factor if you discuss morality.

There are plenty of jobs that are just plain harmful.

There is also a difference in subjective value if a job is done by a computer or a human being; computers do not suffer.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#389

Post by hkmurakami »

cesarbs wrote: post #240
vacri wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy . It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about manag…

This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…

Well when I interviewed in Japan for a traditional bigco, they asked me whether I was committed to working there for the next 40+ years of my life. So there's that, in other parts of the world.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#390

Post by hkmurakami »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #136

Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in…

This is why Japan is so clean and orderly. Look closer and you'll see someone cleaning some hand railing in the train station in some corner of your peripheral vision.
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