Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters • Hacker News Board

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#381

Post by shoover » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

_9MOTHER9HORSE wrote: post #270

etatoby wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple actually. Consider, for brevity, a mortgage where the monthly or yearly payment, including taxes, is equal to the rent you would be paying for the same place. Then live in the place and go about your life for several years, until the mortgage is paid for. Option 1, you took the mortgage. Now you own a house and you are not due any more payments. You can keep living there and use the excess income for…

You do incur a lot more costs as a property owner than as a renter, which you should bear in mind. Over the life of your average 20-25 year mortgage you should expect to have to replace numerous appliances, encounter a couple of catastrophic and unexpected issues (leaking roof, etc.), and after 10 years the decor will be outdated and shabby. To get optimum resale value you will have to sink a lot of time/money into r…

This cannot be overstated. I think many of us see the mortgage, taxes, and insurance are less than rent and call it a win. We are vaguely aware of the money pit and getting out issues but they are hard to predict and easier to sweep under the rug. This conversation should always be accompanied with, "Assume $5k per year for maintenance," or some related concrete number based on condition and size, so we force ourselves to deal with a number instead of brushing it off. Also, real numbers for seller's closing costs.

Still, I think for most markets in the US anyway, buying does make economic sense if you plan to stay in it for several years and enjoy or don't mind taking care of a building, to use peer's phrase.

This calculator is excellent, btw: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-calc...

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#382

Post by Zelmor » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

akerro wrote: post #63

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

Then rent.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#383

Post by known » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

Wonder what majority Swiss will say if they want to pay taxes or not?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#384

Post by illumen » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #348

illumen wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

""" I wonder if you think that pro-immigration movements can be inflamed, reflexive, unthinking and possibly offensive? Actually they do not need to be because there's been a fait accompli in that at least one million immigrants have entered Germany on the basis of what appears to be the say-so of one woman. Discussion is over! This isn't the context for a rebuttal of your suggestion that unfounded accusations abound…

Why are you conflating "hateful comments" with violence? You are the only one who seems to be arguing in favor of violence. You apparently want violence done by the state to happen to people who merely make "hateful comments". Aka, people who make statements you disagree with. Nice tolerance there, bro. Changing laws should be done through the legal process. Even if the laws changing happen to be something you that p…

When people spread lies about immigrants, and put them on the internet, in print, or say them at demonstrations to thousands -- then those have a proven affect to incite violence.

This violence happens against innocent people who did not break the law. I am against that.

The people who brake the law with their hateful comments inciting violence deserve to face the consequences of the law. (which is not always violence by the way).

If you think there is really some conspiracy to hide the statistics of rapes by immigrants, then do the research and prove it. Seriously, if it's true, then that will save a lot of people. But the available evidence does not hold that to be true.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#385

Post by jacalata » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:29 PM UTC

akerro wrote: post #143

enraged_camel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

Try the New York Times "rent vs buy calculator" if you really can't understand that it might be financially better to rent. Also try setting up a budget and some savings - losing your job for less than a month should never be a financial disaster (and if it is you can't afford to buy a house).

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#386

Post by jkn » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:29 PM UTC

Zarkonnen wrote: post #39

chongli wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the fact that the margin on the no vote was so high put a damper on the enthusiasm for supporters? Or do the Swiss routinely vote over and over again on rewordings of the same idea?

It does put a damper on things, but yeah, it's not uncommon for more or less the same thing to come up every decade or two. Evergreen topics include immigration reform, nuclear power, and whether Switzerland needs an army.

Mandatory health insurance is another good example:[1]

In 1890 the constitution was changed by popular vote to give the federal government the authority and duty to establish a health care system, either voluntary or mandatory.

A project for mandatory accident and health insurance passed the parliament in 1899, but a referendum was requested and the proposed law was rejected by popular vote in 1900.

A new law was passed in 1911, keeping the mandatory accident insurance but leaving the states free to make health insurance voluntary or mandatory. This law survived a referendum in 1912.

Attempts at revising the health insurance law failed in the 20's, 40's and 50's.

A popular initiative for mandatory health insurance failed the vote in 1974. A counter-project submitted by the government, with mandatory coverage for large risks only, also failed the vote.

Finally, another popular initiative for mandatory health insurance is deposited in 1986. The government prepares an indirect counter-project, resulting in a law that includes mandatory health insurance. The law is adopted by the parliament in March 1994, but a referendum is requested. Both the initiative and the referendum on the law are submitted to a popular vote in December 1994. The initiative fails by 76.6% "no" while the counter-project passes by 51.8% "yes".

[1] http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D16608.php

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#387

Post by justifier » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

bikamonki wrote: post #255

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

What do you mean by direct democracy? Is it a cultural trait or are you actually talking about a system that enforces/delivers direct democracy?

Some superficial research will answer your question..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

But essentially a direct democracy is one where the people effect policy instead of electing representatives to do so on their behalf

http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#388

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #207

rayiner wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being able to buy a house near work is pretty common for younger people these days across the world.

Not wanting to buy a house seems pretty common for younger people, at least in my experience (in various parts of the US). I think young people realize that the suburban dream was just that.

[deleted]

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#389

Post by rayiner » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #345

ethanbond wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not wanting to buy a house seems pretty common for younger people, at least in my experience (in various parts of the US). I think young people realize that the suburban dream was just that.

Young people almost always change their mind about that once they have kids. This isn't a new phenomenon.

Buying a house doesn't necessarily mean buying in the suburbs. We've got kid and live in the city, and we know other families that do as well. Probably still a minority, but a growing trend. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that people with kids lived in cities too.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#390

Post by rayiner » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #207

rayiner wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being able to buy a house near work is pretty common for younger people these days across the world.

Not wanting to buy a house seems pretty common for younger people, at least in my experience (in various parts of the US). I think young people realize that the suburban dream was just that.

But part of not wanting to buy comes from the sheer expense. My wife and I could buy in D.C., but it seems financially irresponsible. But if prices were what they were when my parents moved here in 1990 (less than half, even adjusting for inflation), we'd probably pull the trigger too.