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What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

theguardian.com

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Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#381

Post by fucking_tragedy »

bardworx wrote: post #145
ubernostrum wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't subsequently mean "non-exploitive" alternatives would exist, it just means those customers/employees would have no options (not even "exploitive" ones). The hidden assumption here is that producing the goods and services required to keep a single human being alive in relative comfort (fed, sheltered, educated, healthy) necessarily requires an expenditure of manual effort roughly equivalent to what that h…

Isn't Communism very similar to your perfect world? All the people were provided for and they worked for everyone and everyone was equal. However, that didn't work out too well. In any system, some folk will always squatter and some will always attempt to gain power/advantage. Your world sounds too much like Atlas Shrugged.

No. Welfare programs are not communism or socialism. The single defining characteristic in both ideologies is the degree of which labor owns its means of production (the resources, facilities and tools needed to do a job).

Welfare programs do not even begin to touch on who owns the means of production.

Communism implies a stateless society after a period of power by labor that is devoid of private ownership of the means of production. Supposedly, this transitionary period should do away with class. According to theory, once class is no longer a factor, the state is no longer needed.

Welfare programs, again, do not touch on this at all.

You've read too much Ayn Rand.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#382

Post by athenot »

empath75 wrote: post #361
jakobegger wrote: post #266

Instead of giving money to poor people, who then have to spend it all on rent, why not provide affordable housing? In Linz we have something called "housing cooperatives" (the German word is "Wohngenossenschaften"). These cooperatives build apartments, and to rent them you become a member of the cooperative. The goal of these cooperatives is not to make a profit, but to provide affordable housing. And it's amazing ho…

We have housing projects in the us, but concentrating poor people in one place has its own problems. The projects are synonymous with gun violence in the US.

To my knowledge, the housing projects in the US don't involve the tenants in shared ownership / membership, which is different than what I understand of the parent post.

The Netflix culture deck references Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose. I submit that there is a similar level of empowerment at play regarding housing. That's one reason why many who can afford to buy a house do so even in situations where it's cheaper to rent (when factoring in maintenance). So as a recipient of government housing, feeling like you're in a giant bureaucratic housing solution where you have no control is demoralizing. Of course, there's always the argument "that's better than nothing; these people should not complain".

But I think we can do better. What if every tenant was in some way responsible for some part of the maintenance of the building? Some can garden, others can plumb or be apprentices under an electrical engineer, etc… Then there can be some pride associated with maintaining a dwelling that may be modest by worldy standards but that makes others smile and generates thankfulness.

In a larger sense, we must include the human dimension in what is fundamentally a human problem, instead of only being focused on the technicalities.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#383

Post by fucking_tragedy »

pink_dinner wrote: post #223
dublinben wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, that didn't work out too well. When was communism actually implemented, that it didn't "work out too well" in your opinion?

sigh do we really need to have this discussion and dou you actually think communism would ever work? The problem is that pesky human nature gets in the way.

The same problems that plague capitalism plague communist implementations.

In power structures, things are great if you're part of the class that receives political favors and not so great if you're not.

In capitalist societies, capital owning classes have the time and resources to be the political class. In previous communist societies, party and administrative members were the political class.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#384

Post by wolfgke »

ebiester wrote: post #354
brianwawok wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well a sane person should cap housing expenses at 25% of income at most. If you can't afford a place, time to move. If you can't afford anyplace, minimum wage has a problem.

That's the problem. The places that are affordable don't have jobs, and the places that have jobs don't have affordable housing. As soon as a place has jobs, the affordable housing disappears. This sounds like supply and demand, but is exacerbated by investment concerns changing the dynamics of the market.

> This sounds like supply and demand, but is exacerbated by investment concerns changing the dynamics of the market.

This rather sounds like the lack of jobs that allow remote work is the fundamental problem.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#386

Post by fucking_tragedy »

alanwatts wrote: post #369

>And I'm simply saying that more and more, we've got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life's marketplace. (Yes) But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring...Now, when I say questioning the whole society, it means ultimately coming to see that the problem of racism, the problem of economic exploitati…

It's too bad that MLK was assassinated before he demonstrated and spoke prolifically from this platform.

His previous successes would have given the credence and momentum to actually get somewhere.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#387

Post by pc86 »

nroach wrote: post #153
zw123456 wrote: post #59

There is an old saying that "if you took all the money away from all the rich people, and spread it around evenly to everyone else, within 2 or 3 years, all the formerly rich would be rich again having taken advantage of the poor who don't know how to make and keep money". This adage, although heartless to be sure, has some degree of truth to it in my view. The problem is twofold, 1) a lot of people become rich not b…

Presuming, of course, that the wealthy were in fact the ones who earned that wealth initially versus receiving it generationally. You might see a different distribution on earners versus maintainers.

The vast majority of inherited wealth is gone in two generations.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#388

Post by Retric »

pakled_engineer wrote: post #374
Retric wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just becomes another subsidy. IMO, we need to build a large supply of tiny but high quality apartments (good sound insulation etc.) in good locations so the market will lower their value yet there still expensive enough to attract young workers instead of the poor. (~350sf) The other reasonable approach is simply to build lot's of housing in good locations. If the supply is large enough prices end up falling. Un…

They built thousands of tiny self contained units in my city and they're all on AirBnB for $125+/night. The problem is foreign buyers speculating on all new housing and either keeping them vacant to park money or renting for short term only.

I know we don't like to apply laws to company's, but that's generally illegal in most areas even if it's generally ignored. Still, if you can profitably produce such buildings then just keep building the demand for housing is finite.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#389

Post by unclebucknasty »

CydeWeys wrote: post #378
unclebucknasty wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That money was already spent on basic necessities of life and can't be recovered Presumably, if the training were significant enough to be worth the company pursuing it and the now ex-employee found it economically better to use those skills elsewhere, then there might be significant enough income against which to make a claim.

If this worked you'd think it would be more widespread, but instead corporations have consistently pushed in the opposite direction with workers over the past few decades. There used to be a lot more job security, on-the-job training, and apprenticing. Corporations have figured that not having all that stuff is in their favor as by only hiring qualified people they can put the costs of the training on the employees,…

>If this worked you'd think it would be more widespread

Yeah, that was my original question.

I think what you're saying is true to an extent. At the same time, a lot of companies complain that positions simply go unfilled.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#390

Post by toomuchtodo »

sokoloff wrote: post #322
yourapostasy wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting. A quick search turned up an article [1] that outlined some of the difficulties with lease-to-own residences I wasn't aware of. However, the CFPB is likely on the losing side if the leases are structured as short-term rentals, terminable at any time, as Rent-A-Center has done [2]. This type of consumerism is likely to be self-correcting over generations of time; I'm seeing far less participation b…

No, I think it's much worse than that. There's a general sentiment that triple penalties are applicable (or a danger at least) if a seller is remiss in qualifying the lessee/optinee at the time the contract is struck. The idea being that if a few years down the road, the lessee can't qualify for a mortgage and loses all their option premium money, they've been taken advantage of. So, the only safe thing is to underwr…

Franky, the FHA should be writing mortgagees, not Joe Sixpack Seller Financing. Seller financing is more often than not used just as rent-to-own furniture stores are: rent seeking of the poor, with them losing their entire invested amount when they hit a financial hiccup.
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