Earlier quoted context omitted.
I usually ask "What are you interested in?" and just let them speak, then ask them to elaborate a few times. People who find this frustrating are usually low-openness, as are people who become noticeably indignant after being asked to share more. Also, I ask what are the most important things they are looking for in the team they will be joining. Some people are interviewing because they dislike their current job so…
Can you offer some advice to people who are low-openness and don't see why that's a problem?
We only hire the trendiest
381–390 of 728 posts
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#382Greybeards do not mix with the hipstor kids well. In the other news, the Pope is catholic.
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's exactly what you're doing when you go to an on-site job interview, so this objection is slightly less clever than you think it is.
except this is on top of that. nobody does a phone screen, checks a sample of code and says "tada, you're hired" we were going to get together in a room anyways.
* Our in-person interviews were shorter than typical in-person interviews because they weren't tasked with fully teching candidates out.
* Because they didn't try to tech candidates out, they weren't as stressful, and so were less draining and unpleasant.
* Because our in-person interviews were entirely scripted (the interviewers had very little latitude with what they could ask and how they could ask it --- which they hated, by the way), they were easy for everyone to deliver.
* Before candidates arrived to their interview, they already knew (because we told them!) that they were likely to receive an offer from us based on their performance on the work-sample tests.
I understand why people resist the idea of coding challenges, given:
* They're not going to get feedback for weeks, months, or maybe ever
* The challenge is going to be graded pass-fail, or whimsically, without rigor or consistency
* They're going to have to do the exact same grueling bullshit draining dehumanizing programmer interview anyways
* They're not going to see the challenges coming, or, for that matter, know exactly what happens next after the challenges are done
That process is super common, even at companies that ostensibly do challenges. It sucks. I agree, no company can really get away with this in the long term.
But those are also chickenshit problems. Switching from unstructured interviews to work-samples is hard: you have to change your mindset on how to qualify candidates, and there's a leap of faith involved. But getting candidates feedback, telling them what to expect with your process, keeping a schedule, and having processes in place to be consistent aren't hard problems. They are table-stakes common sense business execution, and if your team can't handle that right now, your team is mismanaged.
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#384Greybeards do not mix with the hipstor kids well. In the other news, the Pope is catholic.
I live in the Mission and think greybeards are awesome. Not all, of course. But I love hearing their stories
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right but 2 things: 1) HR (presumably taking direction from in house counsel) takes the position that it will be difficult to distinguish between a work sample test and an IQ test 2) We are a large organization with very broad roles. The Performance Team hiring for a Senior Software Engineer will probably want a different work sample than the Analytics Team...
The HR involved must be applying cargo cult rules of thumb without understanding the actual rules and the work the company does (which is, unfortunately, distressingly common for HR organizations.) If the actual work you did was such that a work sample would be indistinguishable from an IQ test (which it isn't, for almost any real work anywhere, and you'd have to be ignorant of either what the work is or what IQ test…
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#386I think we're starting to see the need for 'laborer' programmers. There's a lot of relatively unskilled glue/laborious coding that needs to be done. When you need someone to hammer a bunch of code out for you, you don't need an experienced and flexible software engineer as much as you need a kid with a well-trodden neural pathway that lights up when they write code in your tech stack. I think code schools are effecti…
The problem (at least as I imagine it) was that this is inefficient when the designs need to change and one person gets a really soft easy job and the others get a lot of detectable grunt work.
Now we have the opposite problem - the "architect" title is kind of despised by people who know what it means, and everybody designs - but often those designs are at odds with each other, and usually too entwined with ego to come to compromises that make different sections of the code work well together.
There is a complex balance between finding the right level of top-down design and order and using all the assets of the team to make sure things are good and stable, and in particular, maintainable to folks who are going to be new to the code.
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#387As I get older (I am currently thirty), this is something that terrifies me, mainly because it is something that I have experienced from both sides. I got a B.S. from a major CS university, then started on a Ph.D. in Astronomy. Due to my dissatisfaction with that program, the fact that programming is my passion, and various life events, I decided to leave after obtaining a M.S. and began to look for work. I attended…
Life is too short to worry about things that can't ultimately care about you (weird thing to say I know, but the interests that you care about, even if they are non-human, you fall in love with because they give you something back; and excluding the emotions of: the fear of missing out, the pressure to fit in, or the greed to get ahead).
I'll go out on a limb and say that most of the new Javascript web development frameworks are created by really zealous young people fresh out of school, eager to explore the brave new world of open-source and using Github as a medium to mark their mark (hence the reason for why there are so many new solo frameworks or fork, not enough collaboration); or by old-timers in that community who for whatever personal reasons really enjoy doing it and been doing it. Go to your local open-mic for poetry or music jam for a "In Real Life" representation of this phenomenon.
Speaking for myself, I am just not interested in learning arbitrary new frameworks that isn't intellectually interesting, that is simple syntactical sugar (remapping the textual receipe of rendering of a button from desktop development, to Web 1.0 to Web 2.0 to React.js) or doesn't open up a new outlet to other subjects that I want to learn about (e.g., machine learning, Bioinformatics).
Practically speaking, if it turns out in 5 years, all software companies mandates the banning of lamer frameworks such as PHP or .net and only Node.js/React.js/Flux allowed. I'll wait for the idiot crash guide for these frameworks and these frameworks to be watered for "plebes" like the rest of us and try to learn the keyboard remapping in a couple of weeks; I'll let the hipster kids on Github who "did it first" take the street cred; and hopefully then, I can still manage.
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
The old perception of .NET devs is that they're provincial in their approach to tech outside of Microsoft. Stacks are always top to bottom straight from MSDN or P&P: jQuery, razor, ASP.NET MVC, WCF, EF, MSSQL, TFS. Part of this is MS fault: the silver/gold partner licenses provide financial incentive for businesses to stay in the fold by being MS stack proficient. I've seen Biztalk shoe-horned into a product mostly b…
> Many of my colleagues never touched node.js til Microsoft started using it. Couldn't there also be the reason that before Microsoft started to become active in Node.js the Windows support for it was really bad (bad Windows support is a typical problem of lots of open source projects; I mean: I could understand it if OS X (at least the same degree proprietary) support were similarly bad, but this is usually not the…
Transitioning to Node+TS from .Net is fairly straightforward (setting aside the completely new tooling, building, open source package resources, etc), and you get microservices + much better performance with minimal friction.
Granted, large-scale systems of the Node variety are a world's difference from .Net, but that is not insurmountable.
The appeal is more than simply improving compatibility -- the whole microservices movement had been happening beneath Microsoft's noses, and this is their response to it. It is nothing short of impressive how they have expanded the .Net stack in order to remain current.
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Consulting" or "contracting" can refer to different kinds of work arrangements. One of these is what's called "staff augmentation." Large companies with huge teams of full-time employed software programmers will often hire contractors to fill gaps. These contractors are typically contractors-in-name-only: they work under exactly the same conditions as full-time employees but with a worse tax situation, without acces…
Can I ask what location this is? It's vastly different to my experience of the contracting environment in the UK.
It's also my experience that you get what you pay for, contractors in the whole tend to have a much wider breadth of knowledge from various sectors and hit the ground running whereas I don't tend to see the same appetite from Permanent employees (in most cases!).
Re: We only hire the trendiest
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
The frustrating part is that even when this is brought up and openly described and discussed explicitly in the context of working towards a better and healthier hiring practice, manager and HR types still insist on the cargo cult nonsense. It goes further than just an inefficient heuristic or biases. It becomes codified, even venerated, standard practice, and gains an air of certified approval up the corporate ladder…
I can see HR's desire to follow some sort of procedure though. If you let any manager hire anyway they so desire, it could open the company up to discriminatory hiring practices. By having a codified (if ineffective ) "procedure", they can use this as a defense in a lawsuit and say "look, see ? Everyone gets hired the same way at this company, and the plaintiff was subjected to the exact same scrutiny as everyone els…
One of the modern classics is ageism in hiring, which is baked right into the whole process in a lot of ways that dangerously straddle the boundary of legality. HR types place a high emphasis on this because hiring younger engineers means they can pay lower wages and those younger engineers have less experience about how employers treat people, so they are less likely to expect basic, dignity-preserving job features, like private working conditions, respect for work/life balance, etc.
Of course, they can't come right out and say they are trying to hire cheap dummies who don't know they are being swindled. So instead they invent code words like "thrives in a dynamic environment" and "handles vague and conflicting business needs well" which are just short-hand for "this worker will not enact the obstinate, incredulous frustration that they rightfully should enact upon learning how we plan to actually treat them" -- which often screens out more experienced candidates who know what shit companies try to pull.
This is how a lot of the nonsense bullet points in a job ad get there. It's also how a lot of nonsense company handbook policies get there too. The bits comprising those characters didn't just get flipped by cosmic rays and randomly appear in the job ad or the company handbook. HR and legal staff placed them there, with intention and forethought -- which, if you're really thinking clearly, means that most job ads are frightening windows into how the company conceives of its workers.