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On asking job candidates to code

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#381

Post by SilasX »

kafkaesq wrote: post #358
SilasX wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This x1000. Well said. I've gone through the same thing: at one place, for the third(!) onsite, I got to talk to the CEO, who said, "Well why the heck should I hire you, given that [part of history]?!" -- something that had been discussed with each interviewer over the previous two rounds. I wanted to find a diplomatic way to say, "I don't know if you're just probing my ability to sell myself, but if not, and this wa…

If that [part of history] was a brush with law, taking time out to deal with personal problems, or being caught up in a failed business endeavor of some sort -- you can always spin it out as a learning experience, and say some variation of "It wasn't the best choice make, but I think that going through it made me a better, more mature person." But not knowing what exactly that [part of history] was about, of course w…

Nothing at all like that, and I had no problem applying anywhere else. The point is, they shouldn't send you through interviews when they can know they're not going to hire you anyway. (In the context, it seemed like the CEO was just trying to make himself useful by feeling out each candidate for what his gut told him. Whenever I asked him to clarify a question, he would refuse to explain at all, and just say "whatever you interpret that to mean".)

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#382

Post by golergka »

kozukumi wrote: post #128
jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

> A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). I would have asked them to look at that code and ask me any question they have about it. If they are not willing to do that I wouldn't have bothered continuing t…

27 years old lead, reporting in. Just curious if you would tell me I'm no lead material.

Now, on one hand, I dropped out and been in the industry (gamedev) for the last ten years. On the other hand, I've actually been on designer and producer positions for the first 6. But then again, on the third hand, I was programming non-stop since 8 and turned in MIX emulator (from Knuth's books) as a school project at 15.

So, may be we can at least agree that any broad statements about professional level of huge groups of people united only by their age, race, country of origin or other unrelated stuff are unlikely to be true for everyone in that group, because people are unique and deserve to be judged individually?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#383

Post by andrewpe »

Altaer wrote: post #287
spike021 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowadays, at least for their engineering internships, they have a pre-filled list of top schools to choose from followed by an "other" option (at least when I tried applying a couple years ago). That told me exactly what I needed to know. I'd be instantly rejected because of not going to a "good school".

I hope this comment doesn't discourage others. I went to a school not known outside of the southeast (and even sometimes not then) and received interviews with many of the top companies (Google, Microsoft, Intel, Amazon, etc), even when I had to check the "other" option for schools.

What school did you go to? If you don't mind me asking.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#384

Post by kafkaesq »

SilasX wrote: post #381
kafkaesq wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that [part of history] was a brush with law, taking time out to deal with personal problems, or being caught up in a failed business endeavor of some sort -- you can always spin it out as a learning experience, and say some variation of "It wasn't the best choice make, but I think that going through it made me a better, more mature person." But not knowing what exactly that [part of history] was about, of course w…

Nothing at all like that, and I had no problem applying anywhere else. The point is, they shouldn't send you through interviews when they can know they're not going to hire you anyway. (In the context, it seemed like the CEO was just trying to make himself useful by feeling out each candidate for what his gut told him. Whenever I asked him to clarify a question, he would refuse to explain at all, and just say "whatev…

Hmm -- I'm not you, and I wasn't there. But something tells me you're looking at this (retroactively) as a "glass half-empty" thing. As in: "they must have seen some big negatives in me, otherwise they wouldn't have asked that question, about [past history]."

Whereas you could have also looked at it this way: "They must have seen some big positives in me, being as they asked me to come talk to them, knowing full well about [past history]." You know, the glass half-full route.

But then again, I'm not you, and I wasn't there.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#385

Post by taftster »

wrong_variable wrote: post #377
seanp2k2 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of this is that not everyone has the luxury of that much free time to focus on puzzle-type exercises just to get a foot in the door. This process seems to select for single people with a good amount of free time, which, depending on who you ask, is possibly what they want (if e.g. frequently greater than 40hr work weeks are expected). Edit: thinking more about this, it's good to see that it's a paid puz…

I understand your concern but you are actually talking from a privileged position. Its not really that hard to take a bit of time out of your evening or weekend to do some online programming exercise - IF that is the only thing that companies want. Anecdotally speaking I had to do these types of things while working full time to pay the bills. Having a broader perspective - its maybe only in programming that the hiri…

> its only in programming that raw skills can get you anywhere.

The skill of programming is more like carpentry, mechanic, heavy machinery operation, or machining. I'm not going to higher a carpenter that can't tell the difference between a hammer and a saw, and I won't find a machinist useful if they can't run a lathe.

We need to start thinking of programming as a journeyman tradecraft career.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#386

Post by disbelief »

neoCrimeLabs wrote: post #376

I just want to create a well documented simple resful API for applicants to use. If an applicant wants to apply for a job they have to write code in the language of their choice to apply using the API. Upon successful application, request their SSH public key and supply a git repository they can check their code into. A hook script will email me upon successful commit. A moderately experienced dev will not spend much…

This sounds like a great idea! One caveat being that the it probably caters more to web/mobile devs. Eg. you probably wouldn't use this challenge for a database engineer, or machine learning role. You could, but it wouldn't tell you much about their skills in the domains you're interested in. Still definitely worth trying for roles where it makes sense. I might try this.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#387

Post by TuringNYC »

hnrodey wrote: post #41

I'm going through the interview process this week at two different companies. One of the companies I found through an ad on Stack Overflow whereby they publish two programming "exercises/puzzles" with the opportunity to earn $100 for a correct answer to each puzzle ($200 total for two correct answers). While I spent more than eight hours on both puzzles, I found them to be thought provoking and I learned stuff in the…

There is a selection bias here as others have noted, the exam is likely biased in favor of younger, unmarried workers, especially those without children who have 2-8+ hours to spend on top of their other commitments.

I applaud their decision to pay for correct answers, as it balances the "cost" bourne by the applicant and employer. Employers who send out tests en masse have an asymmetric advantage -- they can force many candidates to incur a cost without incurring much or any cost of their side. This causes bad behaviours.

Traditionally in interviews, companies "paid" with their time, but online exams skewed that. Paying something per correct answer at least makes them think twice before inviting hundreds to the exam that they have no real intention of ever interviewing.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#388

Post by epicureanideal »

Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

There are enough employers that you can avoid ever doing these coding challenges. Any time I've been looking for work, maybe 2 out of 10 companies would ask for these challenges, and I would skip them while interviewing at the other 8. I always ended up with several good offers before ever wasting my time on the coding challenges.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#389

Post by disbelief »

iolothebard wrote: post #263
ska wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or more likely the overwhelming majority of people who think they are "A" just aren't. Funnily enough, often people who clearly are top rate don't think so (impostor syndrome). Dunning–Kruger appears to be very healthy in development circles.

I'm a C, I hire A++ and steal all the credit!

You're an A because you know you're a C and have employed this workaround to compensate ;)

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#390

Post by SilasX »

kafkaesq wrote: post #384
SilasX wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all like that, and I had no problem applying anywhere else. The point is, they shouldn't send you through interviews when they can know they're not going to hire you anyway. (In the context, it seemed like the CEO was just trying to make himself useful by feeling out each candidate for what his gut told him. Whenever I asked him to clarify a question, he would refuse to explain at all, and just say "whatev…

Hmm -- I'm not you, and I wasn't there. But something tells me you're looking at this (retroactively) as a "glass half-empty" thing. As in: "they must have seen some big negatives in me, otherwise they wouldn't have asked that question, about [past history]." Whereas you could have also looked at it this way: "They must have seen some big positives in me, being as they asked me to come talk to them, knowing full well…

You're talking about this like I'm some charity case. Again, I don't have trouble finding interest or applying elsewhere and I don't depend on anyone seeing enough "goods" to take a chance on some bum.
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