SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’ • Hacker News Board

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#381

Post by daenz » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

allworknoplay wrote: post #257

dederp wrote: post #78

I read his article. He is right, San Francisco has severe, unbelievable problems with homelessness and drugs which are so painfully obvious to anyone who has ever visited I felt like I was reading something out of the twilight zone. I hate the climate of hostility towards anyone who remotely points this problem out. The reaction and tone of this article is exactly why I hate looking at Twitter now. It has become a pl…

Dude, he didn't say "we should ensure that we offer social programs and housing supply to address the needs of the poor, mentally ill, addicted, or otherwise disadvantaged", he said (literally) "I shouldn't have to see the pain". He clearly doesn't care that people who are being priced out of the city they've lived in longer than he has are helped, just that they're gone. What a disgusting attitude.

You can cherry-pick from his letter, but it's obvious that his first concern is about safety:

  > Worst of all, it is unsafe.

  > The residents of this amazing city no longer feel safe.

  > I shouldn’t have to worry about being accosted.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#382

Post by citizensixteen » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #350

citizensixteen wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle" I used to also think that many homeless "preferred the lifestyle of homelessness" but I recently learned of a town in Canada (Medicine Hat) that found it more cost effective to house the homeless. This myth that people prefer to be homeless was shattered and this town found that nearly all homeless were able to reintegrated back into having their own places. The mayor was skepti…

Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar. In reality, the homeless population in 2016 SF and in 2014 Medicine Hat are shaped by the specific conditions and incentives in those communities.

>Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar.

Certainly, being homeless in Iceland would be different that being homeless in Liberia. I was just sharing an example of a situation where a person had their views about the homeless changed. In this case it was the mayor of Medicine Hat.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#383

Post by shin_lao » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #145

mabbo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our super-Conservative government for the last decade (now replaced by a young, hip, Liberal one) was actually really big behind the 'housing-first' method of helping the homeless (you get an apartment, no questions asked, then we work on your drug problems, etc later), and put a lot of money towards it. At first, this seems very socially liberal and at odds with a Conservative party kind of thing until you look at t…

Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?

Problem is that people just a bit richer than homeless might complain about not having free housing, too.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#384

Post by spikels » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:29 PM UTC

ctlby wrote: post #141

StavrosK wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited SF a few times, and I was always horrified to see how such a wealthy city leaves its homeless people to wander around, sleep in the cold and generally live in inhuman conditions. I won't claim I know enough about the city from two visits to propose any solutions, but I know that the fact that there are hundreds or thousands of people living like that is inexcusable. I've never seen this before to such exten…

The city spends $167 million [1] for a homeless population no larger than 15,000 (and probably closer to 7,000) [2]. The wealthy city isn't leaving anyone to his or her fate. To the contrary, it's expending vast amounts of wealth with precious little to show for it. [1] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/S-F-spendi... [2] https://sfgov.org/lhcb/sites/sfgov.org.lhcb/files/2015%20San...

And that $167 million is just services specifically for the homeless. It does not included other city services which are heavily used by the homeless such as medical, housing, police, sanitation, etc - probably well over another $100 million - or the extensive private, non-profit and church spending.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#385

Post by rudolf0 » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

notthegov wrote: post #213

odonnellryan wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The homeless often have mental illnesses. Forget less severe illness, 1/3 have been found to have severe illness: http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/homeless-mentall... So, it isn't they are homeless because they like the lifestyle, but it is often because of an illness that they prefer that lifestyle. We've all certainly felt extraordinary pressures related to common every-day life. Mental illness makes dea…

Where I live, it is more the opposite. People come here with irrational dreams, get on the street, fall into bad things, and then through dehydration, stress and living on the street, they become more irrational, and eventually permanently changed.

It's both. Many likely have some pre-existing mental condition, maybe completely latent or or maybe just early in onset. Awful life conditions combined with substance abuse then lead to a feedback loop exacerbating the mental illness, substance abuse, and shitty choices.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#386

Post by stvswn » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

jefurii wrote: post #226

monkmartinez wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complex issue... but in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't. Go talk to your local EMS/Fire department personnel and most of them will have similar stories. I know the homeless people in…

> A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle" For a number of years I helped run a Saturday morning soup kitchen at a church near the VA in West LA. Talked to a lot of people, mostly guys, and heard this a lot too, but for most of them it's not the whole story. Most of the homeless people I encountered had a point in their lives when the system failed them. Many of them had some traumatic event and fell into alcoholism or…

"had some traumatic event and fell into alcoholism and drugs"

This phrase is doing a lot of work for your argument -- the implication is that alcohol and drugs are like open manholes, and people are just falling in.

I believe in treating addiction. I also believe in removing stigmas associated with drug crimes. I think we should help people. But we shouldn't all assume that drugs cause poverty, 100% of the time. Poverty sometimes causes drug use. Hopelessness and despair (economically, socially) lead to chemical escapism.

My point is that not every drug addict is a victim of a disease which keeps him from contributing to society. People use drugs for a lot of reasons.

I am a Republican/Libertarian, and I take a small amount of offense to the accusation that we "just don't want to help." On the contrary, I believe the current strategies -- house them, feed them, give them clean needles -- is doing more harm than good. It makes the lifestyle sustainable without giving them any hope for something better.

A better way forward: - Stop charging drug users with felonies that prevent them from getting jobs in the future - Legalize almost all drugs, except for those that put the public at harm by causing psychosis. - More mental health services, including committing more people. We're failing schizophrenics when we don't force them into treatment. - Grow the economy. We need more jobs for the lower rung of the labor force. The first step towards despair is often unemployment. - If we're going tax dollars, let's create public jobs for people. I don't mind if subsidized housing is part of the package. - Stop creating homeless havens. It's counterproductive. You can't allow people to defecate on the street in broad daylight and call it compassion. When you do that, people travel to that neighborhood from all over because it's a place where they won't be hassled. It becomes impossible to run a small business there, families leave, the neighborhood dies.

I'm not saying we should fill the jails with the homeless. But why not provide public restrooms, and then arrest and/or commit those who are using the sidewalk? If we need someone to maintain the restrooms -- pay the homeless.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#387

Post by citizensixteen » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

hluska wrote: post #329

themartorana wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?

The political argument against HF comes down to the fact that it may not actually work very well. People opposed to HF tend to argue: 1.) HF is not effective at keeping recipients out of the criminal justice system. (This finding is controversial as, especially in Canada, 2-3 years often go by between arrest and subsequent criminal punishment.) 2.) HF creates 'slums'. (This finding is controversial as the solution is…

Thanks for further exploring the ideas of HF. Do you support anything more than HF?

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#388

Post by beatpanda » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #311

beatpanda wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for being more concerned about the media image of comfortable, well-paid tech workers than San Francisco's increasing number of homeless people.

Which of them is contributing positively to our future? And for the record how much have you personally, directly, contributed to helping homeless people (Both in dollars and hours)?.

I was the editor of the Street Sheet in San Francisco, where I led a project to re-launch the paper for its 25th anniversary. We re-designed and re-branded the paper and executed an ad campaign, which allowed us to double the price of the paper without decreasing circulation. The vendors of the paper keep 100% of the proceeds, so we effectively gave 250 poor and homeless people a 100% raise. We also gave away free t-shirts and aprons, to help the vendors look more professional and make it easier for them to interact with people like Justin.

I worked for the Coalition on Homelessness for 15 months, where I earned a salary of something like $10,000 a year, working nominally half-time but actually well over full time. I'll leave it to you to calculate the opportunity cost.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#389

Post by jrochkind1 » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:34 PM UTC

emblem21 wrote: post #298

zymhan wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We don't want to give people free houses just because they're too lazy to work" or some shit.

...or why should I work so hard to pay SF rent when I can be homeless and get free housing?

I mean, 'you' (the speaker) could quit your job and become homeless and try it? I strongly suspect you'd prefer your original course.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#390

Post by rudolf0 » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #303

mikeash wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bro" has become a generic term for a young man with an inflated sense of self worth, a low opinion of others, a macho attitude, and a loud voice. Think of a stereotypical fraternity member.

Somehow that does _not_ describe most young geeks that I have known. How did we simultaneously come to be known as unable to look strangers in the eye _and_ have an inflated sense of self worth?

It's a sub-category of "Silicon Valley programmer/entrepreneur/founder". Awkward geek is one sub-category, "brogrammer" or "tech bro" is another sub-category. They're separate stereotypes for the same career.

I think there are far more geeks in Silicon Valley than there are "tech bros", but the bros certainly exist.