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My positive experience as a woman in tech

lea.verou.me

381–390 of 403 posts

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#381
post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

Yes, this is what happens. Also it seems to me that many women have have the habit of interpreting a larger than realistic percentage of interactions as 'flirtatious'.

In other words some of the interactions that were deemed as 'flirty' or even 'creepy-flirty' would be seen as perfectly normal and gender neutral if they were presented as IRC transcripts in a scientific study.. I suspect they would not be picked out as 'flirty' by the study group who was tailing the logs.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#382
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't address my question. Which specific part of my comment was "off-topic" given the topic of `the experience of women in tech`? If you don't want to allow discussion of a topic, maybe the better option is to disallow discussion of the topic. Otherwise it looks a lot like you are pushing a personal agenda in your position as moderator. That's tyranny. Are you a tyrant? As you can see, my account is relatively…

We've banned this account for serial trolling.

Why can't you earnestly answer a single one of my questions?

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the "sexism" debate was stirred by people who were only tangentially involved in Tech, like the PR person "Adria Richards". If you listen to actual women with actual Math, CS, or EE degrees, you'll hear a different story. As someone whose listened to actual women with Math, CS, and EE degrees (and women who are working in technical roles without degrees in those fields, as both women and men in the field do), I…

It's the "actually listen to women" part that a lot of people here have problems with.

If you want people to listen maybe you need something better to say than ridiculous generalizations.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#384
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, So, no more "ladies first" and gentleman treatment for women?

The golden rule applies to everyone regardless of gender. Think of it like how you would speak to your mother or father (assuming one has a healthy, respectful relationship of course). If you speak to a female colleague, is it something you can say to your own mother and be taken as appropriate? Same for if it were a male colleague, are the words appropriate to say to your own father? If the answer is "No" then don't…

I like this anecdote because it contains a non-sexist but inappropriate statement. It also shows that there are at least two possible mindsets:

* I talk to my coworkers like they are my mother

and your colleague's

* I talk to my coworkers like they are my friends

The fact that the statement was non-sexist hints at the problem being the second mindset; as for me, I make sure not to say sexist (and racist and so on) things to anyone but I am okay with talking about sex and other personal-jovial matters with my actual friends.

The "mother" analogy still has some flaws, though -- for instance, you can talk to your mother about financial, health-related and personal troubles, whereas your coworkers will feel uneasy with such information. Another thing is politics -- I try to politely argue against my mother's political views (say anti-immigration), but I think doing so in the workplace is a very bad idea.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is meaningless without means of comparison. The fact that programs exist somewhere in the world tells us nothing about the importance placed, or resources spent, on those efforts.

Maybe if you actually worked in said industry you've have a better sense of the environment. I doubt the average nurse (male or female) knows much about how the tech industry works.

How many articles in mainstream media bemoan the lack, or treatment of, male nurses compared to IT workers?

Your comment has little to do with the comment you are responding to.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#386
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your uncommon definition of sexism My definition of sexism really is the common academic definition (although by "definition" I mean "definition plus corollaries", but it's a good enough approximation for people unfamiliar with research). > Why would I trade actual predictable present-day happiness for unpredictable changes in future behavior that might theoretically be somewhat better? Why wouldn't you? The questi…

I think I was pretty clear that my goal was to "make everyone happier". Obviously if you want to maximize paperclips you'll come to different conclusions. I can't figure out what point you are trying to make. Best I can tell is that we should stop talking about bias against people due to gender and talk about your preferred topics instead? Achieving similar power distribution between men and women is a value of mine.…

> I think I was pretty clear that my goal was to "make everyone happier"

How does your behavior achieve your goal, then? How do you know what would make people happy if all of your information about what makes them happy is snapshots of the past? Maybe a better study of the model would yield that the best way to make people happy is to offer them the exact opposite of what they had in the past? I don't understand how you can draw conclusions from data without understanding the model the data is a snapshot of.

> It's an irrelevant one, however, since you can't actually predict whether any action will change this distribution.

I didn't say that. I said that we can't predict with certainty and we're not trying to make predictions at all, but we do know from history that political and social action does work. That's how women were allowed to vote, go to universities, and become doctors and lawyers.

> that result in no testable predictions, I'm sorry for you

As I have spent even more years studying mathematics, I can tell you that neither subject was a waste of time, testable predictions or no. I feel sorry for you if testable predictions are the only measure of worth you know, but I hope that you are at least aware that much of the progress humankind has made wasn't due to any scientifically-predictable actions (and some of it was).

Nevertheless, I never said I can't make any testable predictions, only that we can't predict the course of history.

> Perhaps it might have been a better use of time to spend a semester studying complex systems instead.

Well, I did both.

> but the nonexistence of good predictions does not follow this - it merely changes the character of the predictions.

Really? If your measurement time (of initial conditions) significantly exceeds the time the predicted trajectory is within usable error, then yes -- nonexistence of predictions does follow. That doesn't mean, however, that we've seen that societies where social action was taken changed faster than those that didn't have social action. If nonlinear equations is your field then you know that, sadly, sometimes we are reduced to making qualitative predictions only.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#387
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The golden rule applies to everyone regardless of gender. Think of it like how you would speak to your mother or father (assuming one has a healthy, respectful relationship of course). If you speak to a female colleague, is it something you can say to your own mother and be taken as appropriate? Same for if it were a male colleague, are the words appropriate to say to your own father? If the answer is "No" then don't…

I like this anecdote because it contains a non-sexist but inappropriate statement. It also shows that there are at least two possible mindsets: * I talk to my coworkers like they are my mother and your colleague's * I talk to my coworkers like they are my friends The fact that the statement was non-sexist hints at the problem being the second mindset; as for me, I make sure not to say sexist (and racist and so on) th…

I think you get most of it, I was trying to convey that if you say something to colleagues at the workplace that is too disrespectful, sexually suggestive, vulgar or sexist to mention in front of either of your parents, it's a good common sense "warning flag" that it's probably not safe for work. I struggle with this myself, having a dark sense of humor. I hate seeing the perfect set up for a raunchy/sick punchline going to waste, but I'd also like to keep my job :)

Politics is a bit of a gray area. It's very easy to make people uncomfortable without realizing it, it's just a shitstorm waiting to happen. I try to avoid it unless I'm speaking in private with a colleague who I know extremely well.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#388
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I was pretty clear that my goal was to "make everyone happier". Obviously if you want to maximize paperclips you'll come to different conclusions. I can't figure out what point you are trying to make. Best I can tell is that we should stop talking about bias against people due to gender and talk about your preferred topics instead? Achieving similar power distribution between men and women is a value of mine.…

> I think I was pretty clear that my goal was to "make everyone happier" How does your behavior achieve your goal, then? How do you know what would make people happy if all of your information about what makes them happy is snapshots of the past? Maybe a better study of the model would yield that the best way to make people happy is to offer them the exact opposite of what they had in the past? I don't understand how…

No one disputes the necessity of models. Why do you think I did?

I didn't say that. I said that we can't predict with certainty...

Actually you said "I cannot say that my predictions are better than random". Either your predictions convey information (i.e., posterior(world state|prediction) != posterior(world state)) or they doesn't. If they don't, they are useless for prediction since E[utility|choice] cannot vary.

If they do, you can make the basket of predictions I asked for and behave better than random chance.

Really? If your measurement time (of initial conditions) significantly exceeds the time the predicted trajectory is within usable error, then yes -- nonexistence of predictions does follow.

The nonexistence of stable predictions of x(t) does indeed follow. Again, there are a huge number of quantitative predictions which can be made. For example, many systems with positive liapunov exponent allow claims like "a particle's long term distribution will behave like a sample from the distribution f(x) dx" or "a particle with energy < E_0 will travel a distance L only with probability < A exp(-BL)."

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#389
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My female Australian boss says "dumb cunts" roughly 5x a day in reference to some 22 year old marketing "woo"-girls down the hall. I just made a comment about how my balls hang down my left pant leg. In my prior job, I'd never even bring up politics. It's almost as if people and environments are different.

I'd be more irked by the comment she made about your balls hanging down your pant leg. Sounds like sexual harassment to me, if it were me wouldn't let a boss speak to me in that fashion- male or female.

I made that comment. If it were sexual harassment, I'd treat it as sexual harassment. It's a joke, so I treat it as a joke.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#390
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think I was pretty clear that my goal was to "make everyone happier" How does your behavior achieve your goal, then? How do you know what would make people happy if all of your information about what makes them happy is snapshots of the past? Maybe a better study of the model would yield that the best way to make people happy is to offer them the exact opposite of what they had in the past? I don't understand how…

No one disputes the necessity of models. Why do you think I did? I didn't say that. I said that we can't predict with certainty... Actually you said "I cannot say that my predictions are better than random". Either your predictions convey information (i.e., posterior(world state|prediction) != posterior(world state)) or they doesn't. If they don't, they are useless for prediction since E[utility|choice] cannot vary.…

> Why do you think I did?

Because you said that ignoring people's past preference leads to sub-optimal decisions and implied that the best decision is merely to reflect past actions. You can't possibly make that claim unless you have a model that states that people's preferences don't change. That would be a very wrong model, though, because we know that they change and we know what may change them.

> Actually you said "I cannot say that my predictions are better than random".

By that I meant predictions of the course of history. I can say with high certainty that social movements often achieve their goals, and without them, those goals arrive much, much later. In particular, the feminist movement (on all its forms) has had tremendous success since the middle of the nineteenth century, and there is little reason to believe that the trend will stop. OTOH, the resistance to change has also taken a familiar path (while historians don't try to predict the future, they do recognize certain patterns) of an unofficial glass ceiling, then appeals to "nature" and "science", a better past and the tyranny of the reformer against a sieged hegemony. All of these are very familiar to us.

> a particle's long term distribution will behave like a sample from the distribution f(x) dx

Sure, we could theoretically make that claim, but we wouldn't be able to verify it because our measurement time exceeds the duration of any reasonable error of the prediction.

Listen, I went into history after studying math (yes, including non-linear equations), with delusions of being the first to come up with a dynamical model of society's behavior (with "power" of course, being a central quantity). But then I learned history and realized how unattainable that goal is. Maybe one day, if we have near instantaneous means of measurements. Otherwise, coming up with a model out of grossly inaccurate measurements made at different times -- and far too few of them (there are so many variables, so many forces, including forces of nature, namely a lot of external energy) -- all mediated by narrators, makes it impossible. We can say that "social movements that grow large enough tend to work", but putting that into any formula won't make the prediction any more accurate. I still have a dream of a semi-accurate model of how power flows in society, but it will require much better measurements.

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