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Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

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Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lawsuit would have to prove that Sony didn't abide by it's T&Cs, which it seems like they may well have. The issue then is whether it's OK to have T&Cs that seemingly conflict with the "buy" characterization that customers are presented with.

Just because something is written in T&Cs doesn’t make it okay. Consumer laws have precedence over T&Cs.

Consumer protection laws can prevail over terms and conditions, it's true. Are there any consumer protection laws that disallow terms and conditions like the ones Sony used?

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that this is "as good as" buying when the original post itself demonstrate clearly that it's nowhere close to actually buying something? Is there something in Apple or Amazon terms which say they can't under any circumstances deprive you of accessing the content you have bought with their "Buy" buttons? I don't see why you are trying to assign a difference between them and Sony here? We have word…

I said "a decent chance that's as good as buying the thing". If these mega companies stick around and continue to offer access to the content, then it is as good as buying it (arguably better if you don't have to store it and can download onto many devices over decades). But note that this was all preceded by "a decent chance". There is also a chance that it won't turn out to be as good as buying, if the company goes…

> I said "a decent chance that's as good as buying the thing".

I didn't think I would need to quote more of your message, its essence is that you think these kinds of licenses *can be* "as good as buying" when they demonstrably have never been close to it... and it's by design.

> If these mega companies stick around and continue to offer access to the content, then it is as good as buying it (arguably better if you don't have to store it and can download onto many devices over decades)

But the really don't, they regularly cut access to content they pretend to have "sold" to you with a "buy" button. They have redefined the words "buy" and "purchase" to match an old model of sales where you actually had an irrevocable access to the content. All this law says is that it should be made clear to the end user.

Currently companies hide this to customers in pages-long EULAs and behind misleading "Buy" buttons. It shouldn't be so hard to be honest about their business model... unless maybe they think people would reconsider "buying" all these things if they knew they can be taken away from them so easily, without refunds, often without even warning them.

> or loses access to the relevant rights.

In most cases the companies don't "lose" anything, they decide that continuing to pay the copyright holders for this content is not profitable for them anymore (or fail to negotiate it within their acceptable margins), so they stop paying, and remove the content from their catalog. Without any regard, consultation, or compensation for the customers who paid to access it.

> If you can move the content from a PS5 to a PS6 in 5 years, then arguably it's fine to say you "bought" it. But if they're wiping the content from your local devices, then you've definitely not bought the thing.

Many of these services stream the content to you on-demand and don't even allow local copies... or if they do, they gate the local copy behind online renewable keys limited in time. Sony does this by forcing you to connect your console every few days if you want to be able to continue to play "offline".

And to be honest Sony's case is interesting but not very significant, both Amazon and Apple have been caught removing content (removed books from Kindle, removed songs/albums from iTunes, if my memory serves me well, you can easily google the cases), they got class action lawsuits against them and both settled. More than once. They settle because they know their customers expectation of "buying" is not the one their EULAs guarantees, and they really don't want courts to rule on these EULAs or whether "Buy" is a misleading term. That's why lawmakers have to do it. It's really not a matter up for discussion that these companies will remove content sooner or later, the OP demonstrates so, the previous settled cases too... so unless you provide a framework in which these companies can offer an access that is actually as good as actually buying a physical media, it's just wishful thinking to believe they "can" do it, there is literally no incentive for them to do it and they've designed the current business model this way on purpose, removing all control from their customers.

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#373

Revocation should come with full refunds. That would: 1. Balance the revocation economically, for both parties, while leaving the decision to the "seller". 2. The trade becomes the time-value of money vs. the time value of access. Inherently fair. The seller nets interest, and the inflation drop on the original price. What an accountant would come up with, yet automatic. 3. Provide users the remunerative recourse for…

> ”Revocation should come with full refunds.” Of course it should. If Sony are not doing that then it sounds like grounds for a class action? I remember when Google shut down Stadia. To their credit, they automatically refunded everything I’d ever purchased on the platform. Nice little windfall.

They even refunded the controller and Chromecast Ultra, which still work to this day (just not to play Stadia).

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#374

Sony is obviously the villain here (and pretty much always) but I think this points to an unsolved problem with our model of digital ownership: it's based on the media company providing a service...forever? People in this thread are saying customers should get refunds and I disagree - customers should get video files! We need a model of digital ownership that does not involve the media owner forever delivering that m…

This is how it now works with music, I believe. Apple, Amazon, Bandcamp, etc. all sell you access to DRM-free files along with the ability to download or stream them in perpetuity.

The iTunes store originally sold m4p (protected) files, not m4a files.

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Carmack said it in about 2011, if you cannot make your game vision work on a 360 or PS3 you are doing something wrong. I get that we have made huge strides in rendering tech, but the broad idea behind that I can still get behind. Other than higher res assets, shaders and cleaner rendering; I havent seen anything that probably couldnt be done on those systems and still broadly have the same overall feel.

I do agree that gameplay is king, but a counterexample would be Cyberpunk 2077 that can't meaningfully run on hardware that old. It runs really nicely on my SteamDeck however.

I think a point of it is that there are a lot of tricks that can be done to create the overall experience. What I mean is, I didn't see anything outside of the visuals side that was particularly intensive with CP2077.

For instance, when I did game coding it was always a point to not make the AI smart but make it fun. The core game loop is typically pretty simple code wise, when physics comes into it then it gets a lot more heavy but even then, I see titles like Red Faction Guerrilla on the Ps3 and you can get a glimpse at the potential. Even then, apparently that title only used 2 of the SPE's for the physics system.

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#376

Sony is obviously the villain here (and pretty much always) but I think this points to an unsolved problem with our model of digital ownership: it's based on the media company providing a service...forever? People in this thread are saying customers should get refunds and I disagree - customers should get video files! We need a model of digital ownership that does not involve the media owner forever delivering that m…

This is how it now works with music, I believe. Apple, Amazon, Bandcamp, etc. all sell you access to DRM-free files along with the ability to download or stream them in perpetuity.

Is it really the ability to download them all in perpetuity? Google Music (RIP) gave you five downloads or something like that and I thought that was on par with Apple Music at least.

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#377

Sony is obviously the villain here (and pretty much always) but I think this points to an unsolved problem with our model of digital ownership: it's based on the media company providing a service...forever? People in this thread are saying customers should get refunds and I disagree - customers should get video files! We need a model of digital ownership that does not involve the media owner forever delivering that m…

> it's based on the media company providing a service...forever? People in this thread are saying customers should get refunds and I disagree - customers should get video files!

Very much agree. And while Steam could disappear tomorrow, all of the games that have been delisted are still downloadable if you bought them (I think The Movies was one of the early ones - delisted in 2007 maybe, but you can still download it if you bought it back then).

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#378

Sony is obviously the villain here (and pretty much always) but I think this points to an unsolved problem with our model of digital ownership: it's based on the media company providing a service...forever? People in this thread are saying customers should get refunds and I disagree - customers should get video files! We need a model of digital ownership that does not involve the media owner forever delivering that m…

Perhaps we could get the video files and burn them to a disc like disc that can be played back in a special machine

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is written in T&Cs doesn’t make it okay. Consumer laws have precedence over T&Cs.

Consumer protection laws can prevail over terms and conditions, it's true. Are there any consumer protection laws that disallow terms and conditions like the ones Sony used?

I believe the FTC could probably do something about it if they cared.

This seems to be something that the "Unfair or Deceptive Acts or Practices" charter of the FTC could address.

The three prongs of when it applies are

- Causes or is likely to cause substantial injury to consumers

- Cannot be reasonably avoided by consumers

- Is not outweighed by countervailing benefits to consumers or to competition

It seems like stealing movies users purchased thinking they owned them checks all 3 boxes.

Re: Sony deletes more movies from the accounts of people who ‘bought’ them

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has Sony yanked a game? I know they have delisted some but I have not heard of one ever being removed from a user’s library and couldn’t find a reported instance of that happening. Sony’s agreement with game publishers does not leave them the right to do this. I do not think there is any online platform that can make such guarantees for movies.

They've yanked movies, and there are reasons (which they won't tell us) they've banned physical delivery of games. It's extremely likely they will yank games in the future.

Movie distribution is a completely different game - the studios and distributors have far more leverage. These decisions are not made by Sony, and they can’t negotiate contracts that would give them that power for all content people would like to see.

So, given they have control over their game platform and the leverage to dictate these terms (and Steam has the same terms) - on what basis is it “extremely likely”?

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