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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#371

Post by BadBadJellyBean »

Aachen wrote: post #367
BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You summed up my point. If someone doesn't vote if they can they support what ever the majority of the votes wanted. They were fine with it. So in they end they wanted what the majority wanted because that is the result. Everything else is fudging the numbers to feel better. You could also just say they didn't exist if it makes you feel better. But calculating the percentage from the eligible voters gets you no where…

If someone asks me about macroeconomic decisions and I don't feel like I can make a choice that sufficiently oversees the consequences and so I vote blank, I don't necessarily want to be thought of as having supported whatever ended up happening though But I can see what you mean here. Just that I'd phrase it as "you will just have to live with the outcome" and not "you voted for this outcome" or "52% of the populati…

Maybe I have to clarify this a bit. When I say "they wanted it" I mean that functionally. The ultimate outcome of not voting if you can is that you accept the decisions of others without giving your own input. Therefore you functionally condone the decision of others because you didn't put your voice against that.

There might be a situation where you have decide between two equally bad things. In that case not voting would be okay. But that's rarely the case.

Sometimes it's okay to just vote against the worse of the choices. That's still better than doing nothing. You WILL get one of the choices (unless there is a revolution or something). It's not like you will get none of these if you don't vote. Therefore apathy and not voting is a bad thing.

Example Brexit: You could vote remain or leave. There was no third option. Everyone who didn't vote because none of the options were what they wanted, still got leave. It didn't matter if their stance was "remain but maybe work on the terms" or anything else. The result was "leave". Functionally they accepted that. Functionally they sad "leave" because the majority of the voters said "leave". It didn't matter what they wanted. Only what they got. Just because they didn't vote.

Same goes for US elections. "I don't want either of them" translates to you get what the others want if you don't vote. Always. This can happen when you vote as well but then you at least made your voice heard. Your vote was recorded. There were more people with another opinion. That's democracy. Anything else is apathy and in my eyes you lost all right to complain.

Disclaimer: I am assuming a working voting system and the ability to vote.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#372

Post by thunderfork »

motohagiography wrote: post #336
thunderfork wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>uncontroversial, quite reasonably Buddy, patting yourself on the back this much gives away the game

it's gov's own data and stated policies. discourse or gtfo.

i think "source or gtfo" is a fair response to this claim stated in this way

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#373

Post by snapplebobapple »

cf100clunk wrote: post #98

Some numbers to consider: ~465,000 legally verified signatories to the federalist petition to declare Alberta permanently part of Canada ~360,000 status First Nations persons within Alberta ~330,000 legally unverified signatories to the separatist petition to hold a referendum to separate from Canada First Nations have successfully argued in court that as consultations with them are required by the Canadian Constitut…

Why do you think any of that is relevant? Of course they will lose. There are enough of them to be a significant minority because of how terrible our federal government is and how big a joke our legal system is. This is entirely about trying to control which voting cycle they lose on. The left wants it on the next provincial election ballot because its poison for the incumbent conservatives. The conservatives want it anywhere other than on the next provincial election ballot so it can die before it poisons their election chances. thats all that this is. It helps that smith is right and the judge quashing the referendum is a yet another travesty.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#374

Post by motohagiography »

thunderfork wrote: post #372
motohagiography wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's gov's own data and stated policies. discourse or gtfo.

i think "source or gtfo" is a fair response to this claim stated in this way

exercise to the reader. the facts in this case are not the debate, but what their consequences are. its worth addressing forum spoiling though. if you have an actual opinion, state it. but spare us the banal nihilism of people with received tactics but no intellectual capacity for conviction. it's insane to me what the civility rules enable by leaving those behaviours unchallenged.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#375

Post by arrowsmith »

giarc wrote: post #53
arrowsmith wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. They're having a referendum on whether or not to have a referendum? Why bother with two steps? I googled the Clarity Act and it appears to be recently-passed US (not Canadian) legislation about regulating cryptocurrencies or something. What's its relevance here? I am not Canadian and know nothing about Canadian politics. Someone please enlighten me.

It's a very complicated situation in Alberta. There were basically two competing petitions. A "Forever Canada" petition which supported Alberta staying in Canada, however it was built to force the provincial government to hold a vote in parliament about separation, therefore forcing all representatives to show their true feelings on separation. A second petition by "Stay Free Alberta" asked the government to hold a r…

So the “anti-separation” petition was a bad faith move by pro-separation forces? Am I reading you right?

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#376

Post by lm411 »

boxed wrote: post #363
lm411 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. If you've ever been through Alberta you'd already know that though. Oil & gas fields, and wells, are distributed over much of Alberta. https://static.aer.ca/prd/documents/catalog/Map90_Oil_Gas_Fi...

I meant that the oil fields themselves could just as well declare that they wanted out of Alberta after Alberta splits. Splitting goes all the way down.

This is kind of ridiculous. The fields are geographical areas, not political or cultural entities, and most of the pople living within a certain field don't have the slightest idea what or if any field they live in.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#377

Post by boxed »

lm411 wrote: post #376
boxed wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant that the oil fields themselves could just as well declare that they wanted out of Alberta after Alberta splits. Splitting goes all the way down.

This is kind of ridiculous. The fields are geographical areas, not political or cultural entities, and most of the pople living within a certain field don't have the slightest idea what or if any field they live in.

And yet, somehow the people of Alberta suddenly are aware aren't they? Even though they previously were just "Canadians"? Why would the people now living close to all the money but getting bad representation in Edmonton be happier than if they got bad representation in Ottowa? Splitting goes all the way down.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#379

Post by 52-6F-62 »

briga wrote: post #325
52-6F-62 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you decided to take things in a personal direction, yes. I have lived and worked in Alberta. I have had family in Alberta. I have friends in Alberta. My partner is from the west, and we visit regularly. That's some bad karma, pretending you can read someone like that and attempting to beat them down with your ignorance and then claim to be a victim.

Now now, when was I claiming to be a victim? Let's not be dramatic now. Also, which Alberta? Edmonton? Cardston? Fort McMurray? Lloydminster? Grande Prairie? Canmore? I guarantee you will find varying levels of Albertan identity and many different perspectives in each. Albertan identity is not a mirage.

Claiming the rest of the country is against you is playing the victim. And which Alberta? That sounds like "What kind of Albertan were you". Which is starting to sound like real foul stuff.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#380

Post by cactusplant7374 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49
cactusplant7374 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of two people that moved away from Canada and consider themselves refugees for various reasons. It seems... a little out there. But it is a thing.

> it is a thing Anyone can claim refugee status. That doesn’t make them refugees. Being a refugee requires showing persecution that one can’t find relief for within the country’s own system [1]. Given Canada has a functioning court system, the second part of the definition is failed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Sta...

You misunderstood my comment. The claim is the thing.
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