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Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

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Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#371

Post by AlexCoventry »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #318
granzymes wrote: post #81

Because no one has commented yet on the legal significance: Musk lost today because the jury found that he waited too long to bring his claims. The jury answers only yes/no questions, so we do not know their exact thoughts, but it is likely they determined that the 2019 and 2021 Microsoft deals were too similar to the 2023 Microsoft deal that was the centerpiece of Musk’s lawsuit. Musk could have brought the same law…

There sure was a lot of days of testimony on Sam Altman lying, for this to come down to " statute of limitations". Shouldn't the defense have raised the statute of limitations much earlier?

From other comments, it came down to when Musk could reasonably be judged as aware of the injury.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#372

Post by granzymes »

metalliqaz wrote: post #364
az226 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s quite an odd ruling given that OpenAI completed its for profit “conversion” last fall. It seems the biggest value loss to the nonprofit was in this conversion, not in the initial for profit subsidiary creation giving investors capped profit shares.

But this "conversion" was apparently not the focus of the suit, according to OP. Perhaps it occurred after they initiated legal proceedings?

Correct, Musk based his claims on the 2023 Microsoft deal.

The 2025 recapitalization was discussed at trial, but it was ancillary since all that changed was the existing for-profit changed from a capped-profit with weird cash flow mechanics to a traditional public benefit corp with ordinary equity.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#373

Post by dylan604 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #338
dylan604 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is... SpaceX and Tesla actually delivered something, in the case of Tesla at least until that damn rust bucket. They were (and, with the exception of the rust bucket, still are) miles ahead of the competition The fact that the quote of "it's all computer" is not wrong with all of the other negatives about it are automotive reasons why I'll never own one. I also choose not to do business with companies wit…

> The fact that the quote of "it's all computer" is not wrong with all of the other negatives about it are automotive reasons why I'll never own one. Well... on the other side, not recognizing where the world is moving towards is a damn large part of why the "legacy" automotive companies went down the gutter. VW nearly killed itself over Cariad and even in 2020, most automotive control units had less UI performance t…

if the cartel known as Big Auto resists the change to EV and continues to only make ICE vehicles while their lobbyists convince congress critters to enact legislation making it illegal to import foreign EVs, then it doesn't matter what the rest of the world is doing now does it?

When you're the young upstart company playing David to Big Auto's Goliath, you need to make cars that people want and can afford. After that, having a fanatical leader that turns even the most ardent of EV fans away is also not a good for business. Since they can't make cars that people can afford and then decide to make cars that people don't want and you have a mentally unstable drug addled person in charge of the company constantly lying about the abilities of the cars, your David is just going to get slaughtered.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#374

Post by reaperducer »

granzymes wrote: post #81

Because no one has commented yet on the legal significance: Musk lost today because the jury found that he waited too long to bring his claims. The jury answers only yes/no questions, so we do not know their exact thoughts, but it is likely they determined that the 2019 and 2021 Microsoft deals were too similar to the 2023 Microsoft deal that was the centerpiece of Musk’s lawsuit. Musk could have brought the same law…

It is possible for Musk to appeal, but success is vanishingly unlikely.

He doesn't have to win to succeed.

The richest man on the planet can keep his enemies tied up in court needlessly until the day he dies.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#375

Post by jcranmer »

bambax wrote: post #184
granzymes wrote: post #81

Because no one has commented yet on the legal significance: Musk lost today because the jury found that he waited too long to bring his claims. The jury answers only yes/no questions, so we do not know their exact thoughts, but it is likely they determined that the 2019 and 2021 Microsoft deals were too similar to the 2023 Microsoft deal that was the centerpiece of Musk’s lawsuit. Musk could have brought the same law…

I'm unfamiliar with the US legal system but do they really need a jury and a trial to determine whether the claims are barred by the statute of limitations? Couldn't this be decided by a judge before trial?

In the US (I believe all common law systems), the jury is the trier of fact. If there is a genuine factual dispute between the two parties in a lawsuit, then that dispute is resolved by a jury (unless the parties opt-out).

Statutes of limitations are usually not tried by juries because the underlying facts that cause them to kick in are usually not in actual dispute. Instead a fight over statute of limitation is more likely to be over which statute applies or whether some other mitigating circumstance is kicking in, which are matters of law which do not go to a jury.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#376

Post by hungryhobbit »

greenpizza13 wrote: post #272
asadm wrote: post #258

I feel like there still needs to be a penalty to OpenAI here even if that doesn't favor Musk (even though he funded the whole thing). It is still a theft.

Need standing to claim theft, need to be within statue of limitations. It's not theft unless a jury says it is, they didn't say it is.

The jury didn't say it isn't either. All they ruled on was that it was too late for Musk to even broach the question.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#378

Post by mrcwinn »

I'm sure this all has to do with lawyers making as much money as possible — but if that's a potential standing or statute question, why not have a jury settle that question first, before the trial starts? Or to have a narrower process focused only on discovery and facts related to the statute?

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#379

Post by londons_explore »

ryandrake wrote: post #17
2b3a51 wrote: post #9

Reached for comment by TechCrunch, Musk’s lead counsel Marc Toberoff said, “One word: Appeal.” One wonders on what grounds? In the UK, in a civil case like this, the judge I think comments on the likelihood of an appeal avenue once the verdict has been reached.

To be fair, is there any corporation or high net worth individual ever who, after losing a lawsuit, said “You know what, we accept the court’s decision that we were wrong and will be reflecting on how to do better in the future.” Never. That never ever happens.

The lawyer himself is guaranteed another 6 months of lucrative work of they appeal...

Whereas no appeal is effectively him getting fired.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#380

Post by DANmode »

pocksuppet wrote: post #100
cubefox wrote: post #90

So you are allowed to violate the law if you aren't sued quickly enough.

Yes. This has always been, and will always be, the case. It's the same in things like copyright law - you can violate any software license if the copyright holder doesn't know you're doing it, or doesn't want to sue you, or doesn't sue you in time. It's the same with taxi medallions or hotel regulations if you're trying to start Uber or AirBNB.

> It's the same with taxi medallions or hotel regulations if you're trying to start Uber or AirBNB.

They didn’t do any lobbying? ^_^

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