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Your phone is about to stop being yours

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Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#371

Post by estimator7292 »

michaelt wrote: post #354
Xunjin wrote: post #16

Let me play out a scenario, imagine to use a Desktop Hardware like a complete built rig, you would need a specific OS like Windows 11 and you could not run Linux on it, just because it's a vendor lock-in. Why is this acceptable for phones but would not for the case above? I know a lot of people don't care, and that's ok, but we should root for an open choice for the users.

> Why is this acceptable for phones but would not for the case above? PCs happened by accident. Before the PC, people had TVs - devices not for creating, but for passively consuming content made by big corporations and the state. And we had games consoles - devices not for creating, but for playing games made by a medium-sized company, with strict approval by a huge company (who want a cut). Strictly censored to be a…

That's really not true at all. Are you aware of the entire home computer industry of the 70s and 80s? Before PCs, you had a beige box you plugged into your TV and typed in games line by line out of a magazine. They DIY scene was enormous as a percentage of total users.

They also blur the line between "computer" and "console", since the NES is practically the same architecture as many contemporary "computers". Homebrew games existed, and weren't that far out of reach. Homebrew has existed on pretty much every console ever.

PCs weren't an accident in any way. They are a direct descendant of "home computers". That's why they were called "personal computers" in the first place.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#372

Post by theK »

Cider9986 wrote: post #214
theK wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or /e/

GrapheneOS is significantly more secure, more private, and more free. Not sure why you would use /e/.

Well, for one you can actually buy an /e/ device right now.

Also, once you have it, it just works.

Some people like that.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#373

Post by Zak »

kube-system wrote: post #334
luke-stanley wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the "opt-out" will not prevent ecosystem effects caused by the default shutdown of convenient app installs due to the policy. Not even for GrapheneOS users. It's a global policy by a body we never voted for. You can't opt-out of that different world by waiting 24-hours, the ecosystem could have permanent effects. This is coming from a company that doesn't even bother to expose a permission to disable Internet acc…

Is it really going to have ecosystem effects? Surely the small portion of power-users who are bothering to intentionally sideload apps can click a couple of buttons. Or just load via ADB and avoid the entire thing. The entire point here is to prevent scam actors from using a false sense of urgency to defraud people. That is a serious vulnerability that needs to be addressed somehow , and I think this is a good compro…

> The entire point here is to prevent scam actors from using a false sense of urgency to defraud people. That is a serious vulnerability that needs to be addressed somehow

Does it, and if it does, does it need to be addressed by an OS vendor creating a mechanism to ban developers for most users? I'm not convinced of the former, and I'm certain the latter is bad. I predict within ten years, we will see this used against something that is not malware.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#375

Post by manmal »

quantumleaper wrote: post #184
brandonhorst wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true, running your code on your phone with Xcode has always been free.

With a free account, it needs to be reinstalled every 7 days because the signature expires. It's hardly convenient for personal use.

Most apps can be a PWA nowadays. A Hetzner VPS costs roughly the same as the Apple dev membership. Saying this as a native iOS dev since iOS 4. For your average pretty json printer you don’t need to go native.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#376

Post by heisig »

Really good timing for Jolla to produce a new phone :)

I still have fond memories of my 2013 Jolla, and I'm hoping that the 2026 Jolla will be just as lovingly crafted. Most importantly, Jolla is a company that seems to care about me, the user, whereas Apple and Google constantly treat me like a peasant that needs to be governed.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#377

Post by kodablah »

kube-system wrote: post #344
kodablah wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such is the cost of computing freedom. This line of thinking is analogous to surveillance justifications in meatspace.

The concepts don't need to be at odds with each other. But also, I don't think that "computing freedom" means you get to use other people's computers without consent. Let's be clear here: Google's requirement for ID only applies to apps distributed from their computer. Presuming that you do actually respect computing freedom, I'd guess you'd support them in this. I think a good compromise is that they could permit yo…

> I don't think that "computing freedom" means you get to use other people's computers without consent

Consent from whom? Consent is already required, why are you discussing this as though consent is not required? Why are you stating it as if people are using other's computers without consent? Right now when I sideload an APK on _my device_, I have to explicitly consent to allowing it to install. And I do not require the author of that APK to have made any deals/interactions with Google. What you mean is Google's consent or a debugger's consent or my consent tomorrow.

So I, as the user, will no longer be able to provide consent alone. I wish that you were right and it was just "no running without consent", but that is today's behavior, and that is being altered.

> I think a good compromise is that they could permit you to sideload. Which they are doing.

They always have, and that was a good compromise. They've now decided you can't sideload until tomorrow unless you break out debugging tools or require the author make special deals with a specific vendor. What exists today is a good compromise, the change is not.

I expect the same from my desktop and mobile devices here.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#378

Post by SauntSolaire »

something765478 wrote: post #248
shafoshaf wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that is sarcasm, but a chair I buy is mine to do whatever I want with it. Same goes for clothes, a mattress, paint, or any other non-software enabled physical item. Why does having software/hardware make a difference?

Because your clothes and paint do not need security updates, since they do not talk to the internet. Your mattress cannot be made part of a botnet.

Tell that to my eightSleep mattress

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#379

Post by nozzlegear »

muwtyhg wrote: post #182
gslepak wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or choose freedom. I've been enjoying GrapheneOS for a couple of years now and recommend it.

Do you run into issues with apps not supporting it? Things like banking or auth? That is the main complaint I see for alternative phone OSes, and I don't know if that has gotten any better.

The replies whenever this question is asked remind me of when I used to have a Windows Phone and was trying to convince myself it was the best phone on the market. Yeah, I couldn't use YouTube because Google blocked Microsoft's YouTube app; and I wasn't able to deposit my paychecks because my bank didn't have a Windows Phone app or mobile deposit support on their website; and sure, using Messenger or Snapchat (which was exploding at the time) meant using somebody's reverse-engineered WP version of those apps...

But look at all the information I can get from the Live Tiles! Oh and isn't Cortana neat! A little more self-flagellation for the penitent ones who've traded corporate app stores for daily inconvenience.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#380

Post by manmal »

dvdkon wrote: post #340
ok123456 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't keeping ADB enabled (most people who do this don't enable it and then promptly disable it) a huge security problem? ADB enabled means an adversary can completely own your device and "back it up" by simply plugging it in. This is much worse than nagging about "untrusted sources".

No, there's a trust-on-first-use procedure where you have to accept the computer's key on your phone.

Apple has the same thing, but for some reason added Developer Mode which you must enter on the iPhone first. It’s quite involved, with a restart and 3 confirmation dialogs. That had me wondering why they are suddenly so cautious around this.
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