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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#371

Maybe it’s just me, but it’s pretty obvious that screens, such as iPads, are bad for kids' education. The homework on apps like i-Ready is mostly just crappy multiple-choice questions. I fail to see how that actually helps students. They should be challenged and kept in their discomfort zones. They need to experience problem-solving in all its forms and get feedback from teachers on how they solve a problem. They nee…

What does the evidence say?

AFAICT, meta-analyses tend to find a positive effect of tech in education: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03601...

https://i.imgur.com/IYJLiA1.png

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#372
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tells us nothing. People act like this is some big hypocrisy or revelation. First of all, Jobs DID allow his children to use iPads, but it was limited. People take a single quote from the Isaacson biography out of context, assuming that he never let his children have access to iPads at all, forever. Other interviews he gave talked about limiting access - like ALL families should do. Jobs was literally just parenti…

Tobacco executives probably prevented their children from smoking, especially as evidence emerged. That's just parenting. It doesn't forgive them for lobbying ferociously against any regulation of marketing to children.

This meme where people liken electronics with tobacco is foolish. Smoking is physically harmful in any significant dose. Screens are perfectly fine in moderation and can even be beneficial when used correctly.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition? Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python? Should kids be forced to use physical copies of newspapers and journal articles instead of learning how to look things up in a database? I'm all for going back to analog where it makes sense, but it seems wrongheaded to completel…

Those are great examples. Not familiar with Desmos, but 3Blue1Brown style animations are great. The problem is that people seem to want to go to extremes. Either go all out on doing everything in tablets or not use any technology in education at all. its not just work skills, its also a better understanding that is gained from things such as the maths animations you mentioned.

> The problem is that people seem to want to go to extremes. Either go all out on doing everything in tablets or not use any technology in education at all.

I think the latter is mostly a reaction to the former. I think there is a way to use technology appropriately in theory in many cases, but the administrators making these choices are largely technically illiterate and it's too tempting for the teachers implementing them to just hand control over to the students (and give themselves a break from actually teaching).

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#374
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education research is really low quality. Like so many other fields in social sciences, the results rarely generalize beyond the direct findings, and only support the hypotheses in the mildest way. It cannot robustly guide decision making. The fact that studies on screens vs books cannot get a consistent answer says enough. I checked #3 of your links, and the amount of bullshit is astonishing. The cited articles offe…

Yep. Part of the reason is the ethical problems with experimenting on children. And part of the problem is that there is a ton of money to be made in education, so there is a lot of incentive to create or cherry pick data promoting one’s preferred (most profitable) policies.

Not to mention it’s a topic most if not all people have an innate strong opinion about based on their lived experiences!

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#375
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When studying, going over the notes, you'll hear the lecture again in your head. That is a) a BS claim and b) wouldn't be a feature, on average, given the quality of college lectures. It seems fairly clear that manual note taking help with learning, over using a computer, but overblown claims like this do more damage than good in convincing people to do the right thing.

This is hilarious. This comment would imply that the people who got multiple degrees and were very successful through their careers (that would be everybody in my generation: we started in 1980) learning from lecturers scribbling with chalk on a blackboard, writing it all down with pen on paper, somehow had a less effective education than modern students using modern tools. Yeah, looks all around, remembers training…

That's not what I said.

I'm absolutely supportive of using blackboards & paper and pen over computers.

What I'm saying is that making unsubstantiated claims like "you'll hear the lecture again when you read it" is completely detrimental to making that point, because it's entirely unsubstantiated and doesn't make any relevant point you couldn't make in a well-supported way instead.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#376
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important that children gain basic technical literacy They certainly will at home. > I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home. In which country? I live in Mexico and even here you really need to go to the poorest families to find a home without a laptop. Even those families have multiple smartphones. Today a smartphone…

Even if they have a computer at home, that doesn't mean they're practicing the relevant skills. Touch typing, word processing, researching a topic online, etc. are things that need deliberate practice. Based on my own experience, using a computer at home 99% of the time meant playing video games. The following article suggests that in the United States, about 59% of lower income households have a laptop or desktop co…

Leaving aside the wealth gap factor, which I do agree is important:

When I think back to using computers as a kid, both at school(starting in 1999) and at home I don't think it's all that black and white wrt just playing at home vs learning useful skills at school.

At some point in the early 00s my underfunded elementary school acquired a bunch of old windows 95 computers. We would have classes where we mostly did basic touch typing, MS Office etc. At home, my middle class parents had also managed to find me some old outdated clunker. And yes, most of my time at home was spent playing games, chatting with friends on msn, pirating mp3s etc.

But I'd say I learned orders of magnitude more from my frivolous activities than from whatever we did at school. At home I was learning things like: online research(into warcraft cheat codes or quest guides for Runescape etc); software troubleshooting(having to reinstall windows because I downloaded malware on limewire or otherwise borked my install somehow); fast typing(from chatting with friends about whatever 12 year olds like to discuss. Probably 90% of my typing practice back then came at home, not at school, and there was no touch typing. I could type 100+ wpm on just 4 fingers by the time I was in middle school. Never actually learned to properly touch type until I had force myself into it 5 years ago due to RSI); English as a second language(from various forums, irc, etc, hard to avoid back then); And I believe one of my first forays into programming was trying to get a cracked game with a broken .bat installer off TPB to work. I had a friend who got into it via Morrowind modding.

Actually, come to think of it, most of computer class was also in reality spent sneakily playing flash games and/or messing around with the computer settings just to screw with the next student/teacher to use it.

Even generalising beyond computers, I think a remarkable portion of the skills and interests that end up defining us as people, can be traced back to stuff we did trying to avoid boredom as children.

To summarise though, I do think computers have a place in school. But especially at an elementary school level, I think play should be a significant portion of their use, because play is how kids explore the world and themselves.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#377
post #199

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left. In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech an…

>I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I think we should use tech in education, but in a targeted way. It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home. The real problem is separating reading/writing…

Just wanted to point out that you and other people who responded to you basically do agree on same points, you are just presenting it differently. I just find it amusing/endearing that we argue with each other even when we do agree on the core issue. :D

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#378

I remember that - even though Steve Jobs promoted the iPad as a replacement to the 'heavy schoolbooks kids had to carry all day' - he never allowed his children to use iPads. I bet Zuckerberg doesn't allow his children to use social media. And I assume that Sam Altman won't allow his children to use AI chatbots. What does that tell us?

It tells us nothing. People act like this is some big hypocrisy or revelation. First of all, Jobs DID allow his children to use iPads, but it was limited. People take a single quote from the Isaacson biography out of context, assuming that he never let his children have access to iPads at all, forever. Other interviews he gave talked about limiting access - like ALL families should do. Jobs was literally just parenti…

Well, it does tell us something if they limit screen time like they limit sugar but don't limit book time.

I'm sure almost no family have an upper limit on book time.

Thus aiming for screens the replace books is a bad aim.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#379
Guy here with kids in Swedish school. In general I support the direction of learning basic analogue skills and detoxing from the constant dopamine hits of the digital world.

BUT one of my kids has Asperger’s and it is extremely hard for him to muster up the energy to do something ”boring”. So gamified learning on an iPad works very well for him. Also doing math on an iPad where, instead of seeing full pages of equations to solve, he sees only one equation makes it much easier for him to get started.

With these kids you learn to not focus on parenting/teaching principles and instead focus on the goals. I’ll do whatever to get him to go to school and learn, no matter if I’ll have to drive him the 700 m to school while he is watching YouTube or having him to math on an iPad.

So as long as the push for more analogue tools is just a direction and not without individual exceptions I’m all for it.

Sadly today’s Swedish government seems more focused on being seen as hard on kids, crime, immigrants etc (basically everything except environmental protections) than actually following scientific principles.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#380
post #315
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not using tech that you're describing here. You're talking about literally learning some basic computer skills (such as word processor, excel, reading email, some basic website building, use printer, and some amount of programming) For those, obviously you need a computer and completely agree that those are important skills to learn... But you maybe need to spend 1h/week during last 2 years of middle school on…

I am pretty skeptical about the value of learning to build websites. I think it is too tempting for students to devote significant time to something that is not foundational knowledge and where they won't get any valuable feedback anyway. It makes me think back to my writing assignments in grades 6-12. I spent considerable time making sure the word processor had the exact perfect font, spacing, and formatting with co…

The beautiful thing about programming (which also makes edtech such an appealing dream to chase) is that you get immediate feedback from the computer and don't have to wait for someone whose attention is at least semi-scarce to mark your paper.
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