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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#371

Post by infecto »

Larrikin wrote: post #330
sejje wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully other states don't follow this pattern; I don't think the government should be installing surveillance arrays, even if it's "for the children" or public safety. Trading a little liberty for a little safety and all that.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

Maybe it exists but I wish there was more heavy hitting articles/research on this. I feel like an absolute grumpy old man but it feels drastically different compared to my younger years driving and I am only 40. These days I rarely see police on the side of the road ticketing and when I do it’s usually on a highway. Never do I see people getting pulled over in city streets.

My thesis has been an uptick on BS calls. Said differently the bad neighborhoods have gotten worse and funding for police is mismanaged.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#372

Post by vrosas »

jaredklewis wrote: post #317
sowbug wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

My daycare fines parents $5 _per minute_ of lateness.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#373

Post by NetMageSCW »

shakahshakah wrote: post #119
db48x wrote: post #11

Steve Lehto has an analysis of the opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ One interesting point is that the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record. This means that habitual bad drivers can get away with the same infractions over and over again as long as they pay the fines quickly. This bypasses the State’s points system that w…

New Jersey abandoned their red-light camera laws after ticket challenges involving yellow-light lengths. The length should be proportional to the posted speed limit (e.g. 5.5 seconds for 50 mph), but many lights were found to have incorrect timing (e.g. 2.5 seconds for 50 mph). Also, I think at that time some questionable arrangements surfaced between the operators of the automated ticketing system(s) and the towns a…

My city seems to be fixing this by having yellow lights extend when it sees a car reasonably close to the intersection. And also helps by switching lights quickly based on car presence.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#374

Post by infecto »

estimator7292 wrote: post #350
Larrikin wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

Cameras aren't going to solve that. The "problem" being solved with cameras is "cops aren't generating enough traffic ticket revenue"

Would it not? I actually don’t think I would mind speeding cameras and the like. Put a camera on every street and auto ticket every car.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#375

Post by NetMageSCW »

richard_chase wrote: post #327

I was pulled over for having a non-obstructive frame on my license plate. The officer said they interfere with the red light cameras. He then presented me with a screwdriver and gave me the option of getting a ticket or taking it off. I took the screwdriver and he watched me take it off. I lost a freedom due to a shitty ml model.

Just put it back on? In my state, that would not be a stoppable offense anyway if we had red light cameras (too easy to abuse).

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#376

Post by otterley »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #248
moduspol wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the same logic apply to parking tickets?

Do parking tickets result in “a formal finding of guilt, and consequences tied to a driver’s record”?

No.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#377

Post by hamdingers »

senordevnyc wrote: post #356
hamdingers wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Then the bill requires that all those fines you pay go towards street calming infrastructure, eventually making it physically impossible (or at least very uncomfortable) for you to continue speeding. Kind of like if enough parents paid the late pickup fee, eventually the daycare could afford a van for dropoffs.

It seems like this rarely happens. The fines become another stream of income, and reliance on that income kills any incentive to fully eliminate the behavior the fines are ostensibly meant to discourage.

Given the many restrictions on how the income can be used in this bill, I find it unlikely that will apply here. Feel free to check back in at the end of the pilot.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#378

Post by otterley »

tootie wrote: post #295
toast0 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people routinely run the red light, it seems like an easy case to post an officer to do traffic stops and issue tickets. AFAIK, tickets issued by a sworn officer are broadly constitutional.

There's a literal police station at the intersection and they don't pay any attention at all.

Are you bringing attention to this matter at your city council meetings? The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#379

Post by NetMageSCW »

sejje wrote: post #346
sixothree wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my city they synchronized the light so that each one turns red just as the pack of cars is reaching it. To be clear the obvious implication I'm making is that they did this to increase the chance someone would run the light and increase revenue. This does mean that if you're in the front of the pack and go about 15 over the speed limit, you won't "catch" the red light. When you're not in the front of the pack it c…

I haven't run into those (I mostly drive in rural areas--in fact, there's no stoplight in my county) -- but I do run into some lights that just change in the middle of the night, for no reason, and then take a really long time to change back to green, despite not even a single car being present / going through.

Lights with sensors have a backup pattern of timed changes so that you won’t get stuck at a light where the sensor isn’t seeing your car.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#380

Post by giantg2 »

fusslo wrote: post #198

After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure. Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered…

"under Feiock, such proceedings are sufficiently criminal in form and function to invoke the full protections of due process..."

This makes me question many existing civil things. Obviously child support, as in the case law. But also, things like red flag laws. It seems like any civil law that would apply criminal-type contemt penalties is unconstitutional.

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