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Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

quantamagazine.org

371–380 of 408 posts

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#371
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes nature tells us that the questions we are inclined to ask, are flawed questions. The “What path did the photon take?” question is one of those times. The answer to the question is Mu. Similar to the questions “How much phlogiston is there in iron?” or “Does sulphur have more earth than air, or more air than earth?”.

But the question is "what is the universe made of?", and the answer given is "mathematical abstractions that fit the data".

Asking what it “is made of” seems like a somewhat ambiguous question to me. Still, the answer would not be “mathematical abstractions that fit the data”, but “these mathematical abstractions”. (And, there is a lot of meaning behind these “abstractions”. For example, there is a close correspondence between the Higgs mechanism for mass and superconductivity.)

Really, what possible answer could you ask for that wouldn’t be of this form?

When you describe an idea sufficiently precisely, you do mathematics; that’s almost what mathematics is.

It feels to me like complaints like yours tend to derive from an unwillingness to believe that things aren’t at their core made of solid objects or fluids or other stuff which behaves like macroscopic objects we have everyday experience with.

Can you describe an explanation that wouldn’t be like that but which (if it were true) you would find satisfying?

If you can’t describe how an explanation could (if it were true) satisfy you without being like that, then, if the universe isn’t like that, you have to be disappointed. And, in that case, again, I have to say, take it up with God.

On the other hand, if you can describe how an explanation (if it were true) could possibly satisfy you without saying “at its core, the universe works based on [behavior that you have plenty of physical intuition for based on your everyday interactions with macroscopic stuff]”, I would very much like to hear it.

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#372
post #166

It is almost always the case that when progress stops for some meaningful period of time that a parochial taboo would need violating to move forwards. The best known example is the pre- and post-Copernican conceptions of our relationship to the sun. But long before and ever since: if you show me physics with its wheels slipping in mud I'll show you a culture not yet ready for a new frame. We are so very attached to t…

I'm pretty sure quantum mechanics already forgoes conventional causality. Attosecond interactions take place in such narrow slices of time that the uncertainty principle turns everything into a blur where events can't be described linearly. In other words, the math sometimes requires that effect precedes cause. As far as we can tell, causality and conservation of energy is only preserved on a macroscopic scale. (IANA…

> As far as we can tell, causality and conservation of energy is only preserved on a macroscopic scale.

Depends on how big a scale you pick:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy#General...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauchy_horizon

:)

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#373
post #46

I am sure others will say it better, but the cat-in-the-box experiment is a shockingly bad metaphor for the idea behind quantum states and observer effect. I will commit the first sin, by declaring without fear of contradiction the cat actually IS either alive or dead. it is not in a superposition of states. What is unknown is our knowledge of the state, and what collapses is that uncertainty. If you shift this to th…

> What is unknown is our knowledge of the state, and what collapses is that uncertainty.

Unless you believe in a hidden-variables theory, this is provably false, though, see Bertlmann's Socks etc.

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#374
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the question is "what is the universe made of?", and the answer given is "mathematical abstractions that fit the data".

Asking what it “is made of” seems like a somewhat ambiguous question to me. Still, the answer would not be “mathematical abstractions that fit the data”, but “ these mathematical abstractions”. (And, there is a lot of meaning behind these “abstractions”. For example, there is a close correspondence between the Higgs mechanism for mass and superconductivity.) Really, what possible answer could you ask for that wouldn’…

I think probably in the past what one might have expected to find is akin to something like a magical material that couldn't be further probed. That would have been satisfying in a sense because it brings a wonder back into it while connecting you to the fundamental "thing".

What we have now is not that, it's still very much a mechanistic explanation where the "magic" is hidden within abstractions that make no sense to anyone, i.e abstract fields with properties but no material realty, instantaneous wave function "collapse", wave-particle duality, virtual particles etc. The reality of these things is glossed over.

But my point is that if that's what we've been driven to, why are we still engaged in this enterprise? We're just receding further into these abstractions. What are we going to find next year or next decade? A better mathematical model to fit the data? The mission has gone from finding out what the universe is made of to finding a better abstract model. Particles aren't real, they're excitations in a field, etc. It's an engineering enterprise now. So we're not going get a satisfying answer, were just going to get better lasers or whatever the next tech is.

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#375
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that we have no experimental data which contradicts them. Rather, we do have experimental data which contradicts them, but no experimental data that points us in the direction of a solution (and whenever we go looking for the latter, we fail). Consider e.g. neutrino masses. We have plenty of experimental data indicating that neutrinos oscillate and therefore have mass. This poses a problem for the stan…

> the standard model neutrinos can't participate in the Higgs mechanism due to always being left-handed This again? It's only true if you insist on sticking with the original form of Weinberg's "model of leptons" from 1967 [1], which was written when massless neutrinos were consistent with available experimental data. Adding quark-style (i.e. Dirac) neutrino mass terms to the Standard Model is a trivial exercise. If…

So, I'm not actually a particle physicist. My understanding had been (based on something I'd read somewhere -- should try to find it again) that there is some problem caused by just declaring "neutrinos just have innate masses, they're not from the Higgs mechanism", but I could be mistaken. Obviously, if that is mistaken, then as you say it merely a question rather than a contradiction. Should try to dig that up though.

Edit: Doing some quick searching seems to indicate that giving neutrinos a bare mass term would violate electroweak gauge invariance? I don't know enough to evaluate that claim, or TBH really even to understand it. But I believe that's what I was thinking of, so maybe you can say how true and/or pertinent that is.

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#376
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I much agree, especially on the importance of defining what we mean by the word "conscicousness", before we say we cannot explain it. Is a rock conscious? Sure according to some deifinition of the word. Probably everybody would agree that there are different levels of consciousness, and maybe we'd need different names for them. Animals are clearly conscious in that they observe the world and react to it and even try…

This is precisely the matter, I wholeheartedly agree. The metacognition that we have, that only humans are likely to have, is the root behind the millennium-long discussions on consciousness. And the hard problem stems from whatever was left of traditional philosophers getting hit by the wall of modern scientific progress, not wanting to let go of the mind as some metaphysical entity beyond reality, with qualia and h…

Talking of "qualia" I think feeling pain is a good example. We all feel pain from time to time. It is a very conscious experience. But surely animals feel pain as well, and it is that feeling that makes them avoid things that cause them pain.

Evolution just had to give us some way to "feel", to be conscious, about some things causing us pain while other things cause us pleasure. We are conscious of them, and I don't think there's any "hard question" about why we feel them :-)

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#377
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's trivial to add a matrix to account for neutrino masses The matrix you are thinking of is presumably the PMNS matrix [1]. It's equivalent to the CKM matrix for quarks [2]. The purpose of both is to parametrize the mismatch between flavor [3] and mass eigenstates, not "to account for neutrino masses" or "explain their origin". As far as the standard model is concerned, neutrino masses and quark masses all origin…

Thanks Lord Kelvin

Poor Lord Kelvin gets maligned a lot:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2106.16033

That aside, a distinction should be made between

1) claiming that physics is pretty much done (what he's often accused of) and

2) pointing out factual errors in claims about the current state of knowledge (what I am doing).

If you absolutely must make flattering comparisons, may I suggest Feynman instead, especially on lying to laymen?

https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm

I should add that I am not in complete agreement with what he said in that speech: calling it "not essential to the science" strikes me as naive. Once you start juggling two standards of communication, you are on a slippery slope. If it's OK to lie to the funding public at large, what about politicians, funding bodies, colleagues in other disciplines competing for the same funding, journal editors asking you to review a rival's work in your own field? Where do you draw the line? Do you draw a line, or do you descend into a state of generalized charlatanry?

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#378

Experimental particle physicist here. It's just hard. I measured the electron's vector coupling to the Z boson at SLAC in the late 1990s, and the answer from that measurement is: we don't know yet - and that's the point. Thirty years later, the discrepancy between my experiment and LEP's hasn't been resolved. It might be nothing. It might be the first whisper of dark matter or a new force. And the only way to find ou…

But.. are you saying your vector coupling isn't explained by the existing standard model, that the measurement lacked sufficient resolution, or that existing calculations don't agree with your measurement?

Good question. It's mostly the third — but let me unpack that.

The Standard Model predicts a specific value for the weak mixing angle, which determines the electron's vector coupling. My measurement at SLAC, along with other SLD measurements, consistently preferred a slightly different value than what LEP (the European competitor experiment) found using a different technique.

The key word there is "different technique." SLD used a polarized beam of electrons — a completely novel approach at the time — which gave us direct access to the left-right asymmetry without needing to untangle final-state effects. LEP extracted the same parameter from b-quark forward-backward asymmetry. Two fundamentally different methods probing the same physics, with different systematic exposures, giving different answers.

Both experiments had good resolution. We spent enormous effort characterizing the systematics, and they're small compared to the statistical uncertainty. But the two most precise determinations of this parameter disagreed at roughly the 3-sigma level — and that disagreement has never been explained. The world average splits the difference, and the Standard Model prediction is consistent with that average, so you could say "the SM is fine" if you squint. But nobody knows why the two experiments don't agree with each other.

It could be an unidentified systematic error in one experiment. It could be that something beyond the Standard Model is subtly shifting one measurement and not the other. That ambiguity is exactly what makes it a "dangling thread" rather than a resolved question.

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#379
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking what it “is made of” seems like a somewhat ambiguous question to me. Still, the answer would not be “mathematical abstractions that fit the data”, but “ these mathematical abstractions”. (And, there is a lot of meaning behind these “abstractions”. For example, there is a close correspondence between the Higgs mechanism for mass and superconductivity.) Really, what possible answer could you ask for that wouldn’…

I think probably in the past what one might have expected to find is akin to something like a magical material that couldn't be further probed. That would have been satisfying in a sense because it brings a wonder back into it while connecting you to the fundamental "thing". What we have now is not that, it's still very much a mechanistic explanation where the "magic" is hidden within abstractions that make no sense…

That makes little sense to me. “Can’t be further probed”?

A thing behaves in some way. If you do things, things happen.

One can do certain measurements about how things behave, and then record these measurements.

What would it even mean for a material everything is based in to be magical? If there was some exceptional material that is unlike other things, following different rules, I can understand calling that “magical”. But, the only meaning I can think of for a material underlying everything to be “magical” is that either everyone just, declines to study it, or its behaviors like, depend on the intent of those studying it or something like that.

I also don’t get your statement that “brings a wonder back into it”. Like, do you not experience wonder when contemplating the nature of fundamental fields?

Like, if we set aside the “magical” part, it kinda sounds like your objection is that fields aren’t a substance/material. But, if you just generalize your notion of “material” a bit, why don’t quantum fields satisfy all your requirements? And, if they do, don’t you want to understand how this “magical material” behaves??

You decry these things as “abstractions”, and say that they “make no sense to anyone”. They can certainly be confusing, but they aren’t beyond comprehension, and I don’t see them as any less “material reality”? Macroscopic things just behave differently.

I don’t think I agree with “particles aren’t real” either. Electrons being excitations in the electron field, doesn’t make them “not real” any more than an apple being made of atoms makes it not real, or sound being vibrations in a medium makes sound not real.

Like, buckyballs are clearly “real” (they can act like little cages with something else contained inside), but they also clearly are “particles” like protons are (you can do a double slit experiment with them and get an interference pattern).

Also, I don’t think I’d say the enterprise was ever “What is the universe made of?” so much as “How does the universe work?” ? It is a drive to understand! It is asking “How do initial conditions relate to final conditions?”. The tech is ancillary to this!

Re: Is particle physics dead, dying, or just hard?

#380
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the standard model neutrinos can't participate in the Higgs mechanism due to always being left-handed This again? It's only true if you insist on sticking with the original form of Weinberg's "model of leptons" from 1967 [1], which was written when massless neutrinos were consistent with available experimental data. Adding quark-style (i.e. Dirac) neutrino mass terms to the Standard Model is a trivial exercise. If…

So, I'm not actually a particle physicist. My understanding had been (based on something I'd read somewhere -- should try to find it again) that there is some problem caused by just declaring "neutrinos just have innate masses, they're not from the Higgs mechanism", but I could be mistaken. Obviously, if that is mistaken, then as you say it merely a question rather than a contradiction. Should try to dig that up thou…

> giving neutrinos a bare mass term would violate electroweak gauge invariance?

Giving any standard model fermion a bare mass term would violate electroweak gauge invariance. That was one of the problems with Glashow's electroweak model from 1961 [1]: he had the right symmetry group, but all particles had to be massless in order not to break it. Weinberg's contribution was to combine Glashow's proposal with Higgs' mass generation mechanism. It is done exactly the same way for any electroweak fermion doublet (as long as you are happy with the default choice of Dirac mass terms for all of them), be it up quark and down quark or neutrino and electron.

[1] https://www2.physik.uni-muenchen.de/lehre/vorlesungen/sose_2...

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