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“Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

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371–380 of 385 posts

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#371
Much of the discussion here seems focused on the Lean part/correctness, but it sure looks like for Tao its the rapid iteration on the _paper_ that's the important part:

> ... to me, the more interesting capability revealed by these events is the ability to rapidly write and rewrite new versions of a text as needed, even if one was not the original author of the argument.

> This is sharp contrast to existing practice where the effort required to produce even one readable manuscript is quite time-consuming, and subsequent revisions (in response to referee reports, for instance) are largely confined to local changes (e.g., modifying the proof of a single lemma), with large-scale reworking of the paper often avoided due both to the work required and the large possibility of introducing new errors. However, the combination of reasonably competent AI text generation and modification capabilities, paired with the ability of formal proof assistants to verify the informal arguments thus generated, allows for a much more dynamic and high-multiplicity conception of what a writeup of an argument is, with the ability for individual participants to rapidly create tailored expositions of the argument at whatever level of rigor and precision is desired.

Of course this implies that the math works which is the Aristotle part, and that's great ... but this rebuts the "but this isn't AI by itself, this is AI and a bunch of experts working hard, nothing to see here": right, well even "experts working hard" fail to iterate on the paper which significantly hinders research progress.

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#372
post #364
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For sure we will never be able to 100% automate the whole SWE process. As you say, the first input is a human wish, and there comes the joke of the genie that always screw the wishes by leaving something obvious out, because not explicitly specified. Also I think at some point the halting problem will make some programs impossible to test. But it would so great, program in a loose syntax, but with more safety th…

> Also I think at some point the halting problem will make some programs impossible to test. No, not at all. The halting problem isn't much of a problem here. To elaborate: yes, it's pretty much impossible to decide whether an arbitrary programme will halt. But we aren't dealing with arbitrary programmes, you carefully have your agent craft programmes that are easy to prove correct. There are languages available toda…

Thanks. I expressed it with doubt, because I assume there had to be some way around.

If I understood correctly, the halting problem states you cannot make a program to test any program. But you can do if you test a relatively small, possibly finite and well defined subset of programs, right?

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#373
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? There is a reason gpt has codex variants. RL on a specific task raises the performance on that task

Post-training doesn't transfer over when a new base model arrives so anyone who adopted a task-specific LLM gets burned when a new generational advance comes out.

Resouce-affording, if you are chasing the frontier of some more niche task you redo your training regime on the new-gen LLMs

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Much longer” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Let me put it like this: I expect AI to replace much of human wage labor over the next 20 years and push many of us, and myself almost certainly included, into premature retirement. I'm personally concerned that in a few years, I'll find my software proficiency to be as useful as my chess proficiency today is useful to Stockfish. I am afraid of a massive social upheaval both for myself and my family, and for society…

> massive social upheaval

You don’t even need AGI for that though, just unbounded investor enthusiasm and a regulatory environment that favors AI providers at the expense of everyone else.

My point is there are number of things that can cause large scale unemployment in the next 20 years and it doesn’t make sense to worry about AGI specifically while ignoring all of the other equally likely root causes (like a western descent into oligarchy and crony capitalism, just to name one).

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#375

I work at Harmonic, the company behind Aristotle. To clear up a few misconceptions: - Aristotle uses modern AI techniques heavily, including language modeling. - Aristotle can be guided by an informal (English) proof. If the proof is correct, Aristotle has a good chance at translating it into Lean (which is a strong vote of confidence that your English proof is solid). I believe that's what happened here. - Once a pr…

How do you verify that the AI translation to Lean is a correct formalization of the problem? In other fields, generative AI is very good at making up plausible sounding lies, so I'm wondering how likely that is for this usage.

You read it yourself :)

If you and the AI agree on the translation of the problem, and lean agrees with the solution, then you're done.

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#376
post #368
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need you to stop posting shallow dismissals and cynical, curmudgeonly, and snarky comments. We asked you about this just recently, but it's still most of what you're posting. You're making the site worse by doing this, right at the point where it's most vulnerable these days. Your comment here is a shallow dismissal of exactly the type the HN guidelines ask users to avoid here: " Please don't post shallow dismissa…

I'd rather HN become a much worse place than the world suffer though AI massive wealth theft, the BIG LIE that will convince elites to kill millions of people.

Obviously it's our job to ban accounts that make HN a much worse place, but I'm more curious to understand your thinking here.

What's the connection between these two things? They don't seem related to me. How would making HN worse contribute to alleviating world suffering or saving millions of people?

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are! We very recently announced some results on formally proving the correctness of programs: https://harmonic.fun/news#blog-post-verina-bench-sota Formal methods are cool because, by contrast to tools like the borrow checker, you can prove some very "nonlocal" properties: this system does not deadlock, or it makes progress at least every N steps, etc.

How is “this system doesn’t deadlock” not the same as the halting problem?

Proving that a particular program terminates does not require deciding the halting problem on arbitrary programs (same for deadlock freedom)

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using LLMs to rewrite every formula featuring the Gamma function to instead use the factorial. Just let "z!" mean "Gamma(z+1)", substitute everywhere, and simplify. Then have the AI rewrite any prose.

I’m going to replace every instance of 1 with 0.999 repeating, do the equivalent for all all integers, and see how my mind totally explodes.

?

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are! We very recently announced some results on formally proving the correctness of programs: https://harmonic.fun/news#blog-post-verina-bench-sota Formal methods are cool because, by contrast to tools like the borrow checker, you can prove some very "nonlocal" properties: this system does not deadlock, or it makes progress at least every N steps, etc.

How is “this system doesn’t deadlock” not the same as the halting problem?

Deadlock is literally a halting problem.

We can't know for every possible program if it halts or not, but the complexity of programs we can determine is increasing as tools and techniques get better

Re: “Erdos problem #728 was solved more or less autonomously by AI”

#380
post #372
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also I think at some point the halting problem will make some programs impossible to test. No, not at all. The halting problem isn't much of a problem here. To elaborate: yes, it's pretty much impossible to decide whether an arbitrary programme will halt. But we aren't dealing with arbitrary programmes, you carefully have your agent craft programmes that are easy to prove correct. There are languages available toda…

Thanks. I expressed it with doubt, because I assume there had to be some way around. If I understood correctly, the halting problem states you cannot make a program to test any program. But you can do if you test a relatively small, possibly finite and well defined subset of programs, right?

> If I understood correctly, the halting problem states you cannot make a program to test any program. But you can do if you test a relatively small, possibly finite and well defined subset of programs, right?

In the standard theories everything becomes trivial, if you go finite.

The trick is not so much that you have a well-defined subset, but that you allow your programme analyser to say 'Eh, I don't know'.

The halting problem is impossible to solve in general, if you analyser has to answer "Definitely halts" or "Definitely runs forever" for any given programme you present it with. If you give a third option "Eh, I don't know", you can solve the problem.

Trivially you might always say "Eh, I don't know" and never be wrong. But we can write useful analysers that try their best not to say "Eh, I don't know".

One example is type checkers in compilers. When they detect that you are eg trying to add numbers and strings, then something is definitely wrong with your programme. But when they let your programme through, it doesn't mean your programme is flawless.

The opposite is what you get with prove assistants like we were discussing: if they prove your programme correct, it's definitely according to the specs. But if the fail, that doesn't mean that your programme is definitely incorrect; they might have just failed to find a proof.

There doesn't need to be a need and simple definition of programmes your theorem prover works vs fails on. Eg if you upgrade the AI agent that helps you find the proof (or hire a smarter human to drive it) they might suddenly find a proof where they struggled previously.

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