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EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

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Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#371

I am a fairly apolitical guy but in light of this I will cast my next votes for the parties that want to leave the EU from now on. Yes, I know Brexit was a failure and the UK is no better in terms of privacy but there has to be some sort sort of political repercussion for the people who made this possible. Since there seems to be nothing else to do, then voting to leave is better than the status quo.

> I am a fairly apolitical guy but in light of this I will cast my next votes for the parties that want to leave the EU from now on. You say that you are apolitical, but you sound like an extremist. What should I believe, what you say you are or what you actually do?

So now holding politicians accountable is being an extremist?

If the EU politicians start working against my interests as a citizen, then why shouldn't I penalize them? If the EU as a whole starts working against my interests as a citizen, when why should I keep supporting this system?

The fact that you label me as an extremist for voicing my opinion (which I can only assume is different from yours) is telling. Your view of democracy seems quite skewed and if you were in charge of my country, you can bet I would vote you out too.

This is a forum where everyone is free to participate. If you don't like opinions different from yours, then feel free to skip them instead of insulting other people. This is not high school.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#372
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every Chat Control proposal has its roots in Sweden. It originated with Ylva Johansson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Comb... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson

this is an assuaging read. the German government decided it was illegal. reading this featured article, they don't appear to have changed their minds, plus another couple of countries, too. so what are we worried about?

The problem is that it doesnt matter if Germany is against it. If this gets approved in the EU parliament, the countries will have no choice but to agree to it.

That is how the EU works. The time to disagree has come and gone basically.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have mentioned: 1. this wasn't fast, it took ~5 years and most (but not all) of the problematic parts have been removed 2. It also wasn't "fully rejected" or anything in the decision which gained some awareness of hacker news, just one specific draft was rejected, not the proposal as a whole (but IMHO it should have been). 3. it's not passed just approved by the council, which consists of the various head o…

EU law has supremacy over national laws. National courts need to disapply local laws in conflict with EU law, so typically any subsequent local disputes in court will just be ruled based on a new EU law/ruling. EU laws in conflict with a local constitution pose more of a challenge: from the EU point of view, EU law is supreme and they might apply infringement procedures for failing to recognize it, but for a country,…

> EU law has supremacy over national laws

This only applies where countries ceded sovereignty to the EU.

Technically in Germany non of the sovereignty was ceded but transferred based on two different articles in the German Constitution. But that transfer is neither absolute, nor automatic. Practically it means that in most situations it is "as if" it was cede, but just in most situations.

This leads to a situation where if the supreme court rules that some EU regulations or similar are against the German constitution you have a conflict between the constitutional articles which transfer authority and the ones the court ruled to have been infringed one.

But in the German constitution not all articles are equally, the first few have special protections and extra hurdles to amend. And the article which transfers powers to the EU _is not one of them_. This means that for any of the more protected clauses Germany has not at all ceded the authority of their supreme court to do a final judgement on.

In such cases if the German supreme court says no, it's means no for any application of law in German no matter what the EU courts say. And there are only 3 ways to fix that, 1. the EU amends their regulation, 2. Germany amends their constitution (practically impossible in such cases), 3. the rule informally applies to everyone but Germany, 4. Germany leaves the EU which would likely mean it's end.

So while everyone pretends there is no issue (3rd option) can in some situations be viable and given that 2 is non-viable it pretty much always ends with a compromise of amending things just far enough to not longer cause an issue with the German constitution.

Systematic breaches of privacy through mass surveillance fall under that especially protected articles in the German constitution. And option 3 doesn't really work here. So it's one of the rare cases where German Supreme court actually matters on EU level.

Through practically it hardly ever matters outside of very very few cases:

- because of Article 1 (the most protected one you could say), the ECHR has more or less implicitly the same amount of power as the supreme court, only if the ECHR does rulings in conflict with human rights would that not be the case (so in practice never)

- as one of the core founding members and the country with the largest population (and seats in the EU parliament are distributed based on population) Germany can normally make sure such a situation doesn't arise

- and the breach must really be of a constitutional article standing above the one which transfers power to the EU (which most are not)

- you have to propagate things up to the supreme court, while all other courts will rule based on EU law/ECJ decisions

but it doesn't mean that it never happened,

e.g. there had been one case where the German supreme court ruled that a) something is against the constitution and b) that the EU organ which caused this acted unreasonable in a way which isn't covered by the transfer of authority. That case go resolved with compromises, but was neither the first nor will it be the last where "in practice" the German Supreme court overruled EU decisions, even if it on paper doesn't (because it only overrules what happens with law in Germany and overruling an EU decision would affect other countries, too).

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#374
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I've never understood why popular polices get such a bad rep in a supposed democracy? Because they are extremely short shortsighted and a wreck in a long term.

The classic populist political policy was the creation of the NHS in 1948. Would you say that was "extremely short shortsighted and a wreck in a long term."?

Populism and popular policies is not exactly the same. I would say NHS is a socialist/left policy but not populism.

I don't know an exact definition of a populism but for me it's when political messages are designed to trigger strong emotions, ignore complexity, promise simple solutions to hard problems. All politicians to some extent lie, over-promise and under-deliver but populists tent to take this on a next level.

Right populists tend to promise tax cuts (which unsurprisingly benefit their sponsors the most) and to balance budget they either increase debt or undermine public services (which is bad in a long term). Left populists promise to tax the rich ignoring that it's can be bad for economic growth and taxing alone would not give enough revenue to significantly benefit poor/middle classes.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might well change: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kn54vj55xo.amp

Non-AMP link to help keep dirty monopolists at bay: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kn54vj55xo Please don't use AMP.

I did not actually notice it was AMP.

Its on the same domain as the version you link to - is that still a problem?

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#376
post #6

Even living nearby in the UK it blows my mind how quickly the EU proposes, kills and then revives and passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe.

> passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe. It did not pass. I think the problem here is that you don't understand how the system works. The EU parliament still would have to approve this for it to become legislation. This is akin to a national government proposing a law, and the congress having to vote for it.

Yes, I think that is right. I don’t understand how it works. This comment got a little more attention than I expected.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#377

As the most "good faith" interpretation, I feel like the only way to do something like this in a remotely not-insane manner with the assumption that there are good reasons where messages must be decrypted would be: * Each user gets a key to sign a message, there's also one for decryption like E2EE * The platform owners get a part of a backdoor key for decryption (per message) as well (call it another end in E2EE if y…

Nothing new under the Sun mate. Look up Clipper Chip. Further, don't let people here bait you into revealing these types of things for them. Some ideas are just meant to be data dumped/remain forever in silence.

Difference is that with the above you’d have a party that actually discloses what data is accessed so having the ability to access it doesn’t immediately turn into mass surveillance and the people (e.g. opposition politicians) would at least be able to bring attention to the fact by making the reasons for the surveillance be revealed in a court hearing.

Of course I have 0 belief that it wouldn’t get hijacked/corrupted by horrible people anyways so whatever.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have mentioned: 1. this wasn't fast, it took ~5 years and most (but not all) of the problematic parts have been removed 2. It also wasn't "fully rejected" or anything in the decision which gained some awareness of hacker news, just one specific draft was rejected, not the proposal as a whole (but IMHO it should have been). 3. it's not passed just approved by the council, which consists of the various head o…

EU law has supremacy over national laws. National courts need to disapply local laws in conflict with EU law, so typically any subsequent local disputes in court will just be ruled based on a new EU law/ruling. EU laws in conflict with a local constitution pose more of a challenge: from the EU point of view, EU law is supreme and they might apply infringement procedures for failing to recognize it, but for a country,…

> for a country, the constitution is probably more important than a treaty.

The constitution is always supreme, because the ability to agree to the treaties derives from the constitution.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#379

How they're packaging it now? Terrorism? Child porn? Russian agents? Either way politicians prefer to push unpopular stuff like this via the EU because the responsibility gets muddied - "we didn't want it, the EU regulation requires us to spy on you!".

It's important to know that the "new" in the title is entirely made up, it's the same draft as last week when they just ran out of time at the meeting, probably because they were fighting about Ukraine stuff.

Honestly that's fine, even good. This issue needs to come to the attention of everyday people.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#380
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you perhaps a UK citizen? I, a German, can use GPT-5.1 without providing biometric information.

Are you able to access the API models without verifying your organization? See if you can access all models here. https://platform.openai.com/chat/edit Web/app interface and API access are two different access layers for the model. Everyone can use the web or app interface for accessing all models, but API access is restricted unless you provide biometric information.

Oh, I didn't realize you're talking about the API, sorry. I don't know about that.
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