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Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

eff.org

371–380 of 419 posts

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying metal detectors don’t work? Why is it that absolutely every airport in the world has similar security - as well as Brightline in Florida and the Chunnel between London and France? As far as people not wanting to bring guns on planes - did you forget what country this is? 2nd Amendment people get their panties in a knot anytime they can’t bring a gun anywhere.

> Are you saying metal detectors don’t work? Every time they've tested it, the testers were able to get 70-80% of their weapons past the TSA; which, yes, includes guns. I don't know precisely how they achieved that, but they certainly did.

Citation?

The best I could find that you could sneak explosives through if you were sophisticated enough but nothing about sneaking guns through.

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#372

"Here's what happens if VPNs get blocked: everyone has to verify their age by submitting government IDs, biometric data, or credit card information directly to websites-without any encryption or privacy protection. We already know how this story ends. Companies get hacked. Data gets breached. And suddenly your real name is attached to the websites you visited, stored in some poorly-secured database waiting for the in…

[deleted]

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#373

"Here's what happens if VPNs get blocked: everyone has to verify their age by submitting government IDs, biometric data, or credit card information directly to websites-without any encryption or privacy protection. We already know how this story ends. Companies get hacked. Data gets breached. And suddenly your real name is attached to the websites you visited, stored in some poorly-secured database waiting for the in…

It appears the bill would exempt AWS, DigitalOcean and "cheap server(s) for less than dollar"

"(b) No Internet service provider or its affiliates or subsidiaries, search engine, or cloud service provider shall be held to have violated sub. (2) on the basis of the entity having provided access or connection to or from a website, content on the Internet, or a facility, system, or network not under that entitys control, or the entitys provision of communicating, transmitting, downloading, intermediate storage of, providing access software for, or other services that communicate ...

(c) No Internet service provider or its affiliates or subsidiaries, search engine, or cloud service provider shall be held to have violated sub. (3) on the basis of the entity having provided access or connection to or from a website, content on the Internet, or a facility, system, or network not under that entitys control, or the entitys provision of communicating, transmitting, downloading, intermediate storage of, providing access software for, or other services that communicate ..."

The bill restricts "persons" from knowingly retaining identifying information on users. This is some peculiar wording maybe trying to allow for some loophole where automated retention of information is exempted

"Under the bill, persons that perform reasonable age verification methods may not knowingly retain identifying information of the individual attempting to access the website after the individuals access has been granted or denied"

"(b) A person that performs a reasonable age verification method in compliance with par. (a) may not knowingly retain identifying information of the individual attempting to access the website after the individuals access has been granted or denied."

The EFF title is inaccurate

The bill does not "ban" VPNs

It does not create illegality

It creates potential civil liability for certain businesses, and only if and when someone sues and wins

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#374

A device-side IP filter locked behind a password that parents can configure in the device's settings would be much more effective and easier to implement than censoring the Internet. This should be the default solution, yet it's never brought up for whatever reason. Not to mention these online content censorship laws for kids are wrong in principle because parents are supposed to be in control of how they raise each…

The goal is controling the flow of information online. "protecting the children" may or may not be a sincere concern but ultimately censorship is what is desired here.

I think Hanlon's razor probably applies here. There's no way the average Wisconsin legislator understands this bill.

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but only when and where you buy it, not when and where you drink it.

Extending the analogy would be a pretty weird but plausible thing - you show your ID to buy "internet credits" then go home and use them however you want. But those credits probably have an ID or known endpoint that will be tied to your ID/credit card.

Until someone finds a clever and credible way to anonymize "internet credit", we could just outlaw any internet-connected devices in possession or in use by a minor. To extend the analogy, just like a bottle of whiskey. For the safety of the minors, of course.

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#376
post #26

As someone born in a post‑Soviet country with rather many odd digital laws--including one requiring that any use of encryption be registered with the department of commerce and the secret service (meaning no TLS unless you get a permit)--I can clearly see the endgame of similar proposals. These laws aren’t meant to be followed. Their text is deliberately vague, and their demands are impossible by design. They aren't…

> These laws aren’t meant to be followed Selective enforcement should be illegal - people practicing it should be put in prison, the law should be auto-repealed, any past sentences cancelled and the people sentenced should be compensated. This should be written into every constitution, just like free speech and the right to kill when killing is right ("right to bear arms").

Agree. Good intentions. How do you practically approach this? Which incentives would you suggest to steer the system that way? What will keep the system from slipping back to selective enforcement?

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#377
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the government decides to ban all cryptography, or forcefully install their own certificates on every device, it should be possible to avoid any restriction attempts. If they're doing deep packet inspection to detect specific protocols, then those can be tunneled via encrypted protocols they do allow, such as TLS or SSH. This is certainly more inconvenient to use, but not impossible. If they're blocking all tr…

The thing is, you're still breaking the original law, which is "you must prove your age to access this content." Using a VPN, or any other technical workaround you can think of, doesn't negate that the law in your state says you must prove your age to access the content. States require proof of age to purchase alcohol. You can ask someone who is of age to buy it for you, that doesn't make it legal for you to have it.

>You can ask someone who is of age to buy it for you, that doesn't make it legal for you to have it.

Not true for California, and probably many other states:

[0] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/laws/minor-in-possessio...

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#378
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is controling the flow of information online. "protecting the children" may or may not be a sincere concern but ultimately censorship is what is desired here.

I think Hanlon's razor probably applies here. There's no way the average Wisconsin legislator understands this bill.

No. Stop using Hanlon's razor as a magic word that lets those in power evade responsibility for turning tech against people. They already excel at dodging consequences without anyone resorting to lazy two word arguments in their defense.

It doesn't take a computer genius to understand the broader implications this has on civil society. If they genuinely lack the insight to comprehend this, then they certainly wouldn’t be using children as a shield.

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#379
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is controling the flow of information online. "protecting the children" may or may not be a sincere concern but ultimately censorship is what is desired here.

I think Hanlon's razor probably applies here. There's no way the average Wisconsin legislator understands this bill.

how about Asimov's 3rd Law of Stupid: sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice

Re: Lawmakers want to ban VPNs

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You realize every single country has similar procedures? The US has a way of setting bad precedents or pressuring other countries to adopt its inanity, yes. Another reason not to do it here. > If NY gets disrupted - no one cares outside of New York. The very large number of people in New York probably care though. Also, why would someone blowing up a train in New York be less scary to people in DC than someone blow…

If you haven’t noticed, “the people in DC” right now don’t care about the US outside of red states. And the reason a plane is different because people think it could happen to them if they got on a plane. If you don’t live in NYC, it’s easy to avoid the NYC train system. If I want to get from ATL to Seattle - what am I going to do drivers two or three days? > Less than a quarter as many people as get stuck when the N…

> If you haven’t noticed, “the people in DC” right now don’t care about the US outside of red states.

I feel like you're failing to see the symmetry at all. We have direct historical evidence on point that they cared about some New York City skyscrapers, and those were definitely Republicans too. Do you really think they wouldn't care about the same thing today regardless of whether it was a plane or a train?

> And the reason a plane is different because people think it could happen to them if they got on a plane.

But if it happens to a train people don't think it could happen to them if they got on a train? Either that's not true or those people would have such a disconnected relationship to logic that there is no use pandering to them anyway because they wouldn't see the connection between your policies and the results.

> There plenty of ways to get from Manhattan to Queens if the train system went down then to get from California to Florida.

Spoken like someone who hasn't seen the days when it goes down. What happens when you take the 4 million people who ride the subway every day and tell them it isn't there? Impassable gridlock.

> Is it really that hard to see the difference between a localized transportation system in NYC and a worldwide network of planes?

All of the transportation systems are interconnected. What does the connectedness change? If something happens on a train in New York, does it materially affect San Francisco but not Honolulu because trains connect New York and California but not Hawaii?

Planes are even less affected by this than other things because you can damage train tracks or road bridges that act as a bottleneck but the only infrastructure air travel requires is airports and planes, and airports are widely distributed and planes are easy to move around.

> Especially since airline security doesn’t just affect domestic flights it also affects flights leaving the US.

Which is another reason it's a farce, because it also affects flights entering the US and then it doesn't matter what the TSA does when you can go through airport security in the country of your choosing with the weakest or most bribe-accepting security that lets you get behind the checkpoint on a plane to the US.

> And you think the US pressured England of all places to have higher security?

Your original claim was that all other countries do this. Before 9/11, they didn't, and now you're having to resort to only the countries with the most stringent checks. Obviously Israel where bombings are practically a daily occurrence would need more than countries where that is much less common, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?

> Why would the US care for instance if there were screenings to get on the baby Sansa propellor plane that flies from San Jose Costa Rica to Manual Antonino?

Are you saying that the screenings to get on that plane are the same as the ones imposed by the TSA, or are you now conceding that this is wrong:

> You realize every single country has similar procedures?

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