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US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

thedailybeast.com

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Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#371

Post by djoldman »

Leherenn wrote: post #249
dylan604 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been plenty of airlines that have gone out of business, so it's not just a money making machine that you seem to think it is.

I think the argument is that if you take the airline industry as whole (so not just airlines, but aircraft manufacturers, travel agencies, airports, all the concessions there, ...) it's still very profitable. And if you add the value to the customers, then it's through the roof. Maybe the reverse is more clear: if air travel didn't exist, it would have a huge economic impact; a clear proof of the value creation. Airl…

That's a false dichotomy. If airlines didn't exist, we would have found some other way to move things. Maybe trains, which would have been the better future by far.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#372

Post by dathinab »

RestartKernel wrote: post #327
dathinab wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes but Musk has claimed he could trivially re-implement the system with more or less only using AI putting aside weather that is true or not and just assume it to be true for the later argument then it is the perfect chance to replace a public service the country depends on by a billionaire controlled private company thats how you convert a country to an oligarchy, bit by bit replacing essential parts with entities…

> trivially re-implement That's... concerning to anyone who has tried or witnessed a trivial rewrite. Let me hold some hope in the institutions that be to stop this from being hastily deployed.

oh yes,

kinda the norm for musk ideas

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#373

Post by RestartKernel »

dathinab wrote: post #372
RestartKernel wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trivially re-implement That's... concerning to anyone who has tried or witnessed a trivial rewrite. Let me hold some hope in the institutions that be to stop this from being hastily deployed.

oh yes, kinda the norm for musk ideas

Give him some credit. The Hyper Loop perfectly achieved its goal of sidelining any discussion of high speed rail.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#374

Post by retrochameleon »

yason wrote: post #365
retrochameleon wrote: post #307

I'm a heavy gamer. I like lots of strategy games. Sometimes I look at our country like a strategy game: where we are investing resources, infrastructure planning and investment, active problems or threats and how they are being prioritized and handled, managing citizen happiness, etc. The last 10-20 years feel like a massive lost opportunity to invest in some of these improvements and forward-thinking planning. In th…

> It feels like we are in a weaker position then ever: militaristically, > economically, scientifically, and so on. Meanwhile the threats of China > and Russia and what could happen in the next few years are quite concerning. On the other hand, it's not only USA really. Russia with their czarist structure of power and control hasn't really had an economy that's more sustainable than USSR ever pretended to have, and t…

In my eyes China seems to have a very strong position. They have invested so heavily in optimizing their industries, regulations, etc. that they really seem to operate many orders of magnitude more efficiently than anyone else.

They also have a great advantage in their communistic structure. If they decide on a big project, pivot, allocation of resources for long-term strategy, they just do it. You don't have to convince citizens or states. They just do it if it makes strategic sense.

Those benefits often seem to outweigh the issues of citizen happiness, cohesion, government support. China has gotten incredibly good at controlling their citizens such that dissent seems like a pretty small issue for them to deal with.

As I understand, China is facing some difficulty scaling up food production for strong food security. I'm not familiar with their issues regarding power generation, but I'm curious to know more. While I'm not surprised they are indebted, like almost every other country in the world, I don't see that stopping them from ignoring the rest of the world when they don't think anyone else can stop them. Whenever tensions reach a breaking point.

On top of all that, China seems to have a lot of good talent, particular in the technology sector. We are at the precipice of an AI and drone-enabled world war, and if a country were to make vast strides in that technology to get ahead of peers, the power differential could be quite scary. And if any country has the industry and resources to produce tons of such weapons at scale, I'd expect it to be China, maybe with some help from their allies.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#375

Post by drivingmenuts »

xphos wrote: post #186

Remember the ATCs never recovered from the staffing shortage when Reagan fired them for striking on working conditions. The conditions have not improved the hiring has never caught up. Rates of alcholalism from work induced stress is extremely high and they have been showing up for work while not getting paid. Anyone who calls all public sector people lazy or entitled, remember ATCs are government workers do work ext…

I get the impression that some people in Washington think all government employees are lazy and entitled.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#376

Post by dzhiurgis »

throw0101a wrote: post #325
retrochameleon wrote: post #307

I'm a heavy gamer. I like lots of strategy games. Sometimes I look at our country like a strategy game: where we are investing resources, infrastructure planning and investment, active problems or threats and how they are being prioritized and handled, managing citizen happiness, etc. The last 10-20 years feel like a massive lost opportunity to invest in some of these improvements and forward-thinking planning. In th…

> I'm a heavy gamer. I like lots of strategy games. Politicians should have to play several hundred hours of 4X games (Civ 4/5/6/7, Stellaris, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron) before they're allowed to run for office. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4X If they can't beat some of these videos at the highest difficulty settings they should not be allowed to break things IRL.

If this is such a good filter - has it been used elsewhere? I know US military tried to hire gamers before to fly drones.

On a flip side - politics is deeply social game. My mental image of gamers is very opposite of social (yes I know many games nowadays are social).

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#377

Post by immibis »

yieldcrv wrote: post #20
montroser wrote: post #2

What is Trump's endgame here? Everyone stranded for Thanksgiving, poor kids going hungry, all for...what, exactly?

Given that Trump and the left have the same view on this government shutdown as they’re both acknowledging how Republicans control both houses, I wouldn’t say this is part of any plan he has. Trump has called for the Senate to remove the filibuster, which would allow for the government to reopen with a simple majority instead of needing more votes from Democrats One could say the only endgame is unilateral control Bu…

AFAIK the existence of the filibuster is something that's separately decided every session. I think if the Republicans delete it for this session, and Democrats win the next one, they'll bring it back because they suffer from extreme normalcy bias / Business As Usual syndrome.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#378

Post by mrtksn »

dolmen wrote: post #277
mrtksn wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are allowed at work when they are not being paid, why don’t the airlines create a fund where they just pay them something so they can survive the shut down? IIRC the shutdown isn’t happening that often, they probably can just put money in it and use it when needed

Who should the airlines speak to? People in charge are either at home or very busy.

They can speak to the people actually working on the job? Even if there's no one to give the airlines a list the pilots can deliver the message when they talk at take off and landing.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#379

Post by CyberMacGyver »

walletdrainer wrote: post #361
gigatexal wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol I don’t want my plane to crash into another plane…

It’s hardly a herculean task to replace most atc functions with software, detecting planes which are on collision course and instructing them how to avoid that being one of the easiest tasks. Of course you’d still sometimes need a human in the loop, but you could get by with much less staff

The classic Dunning–Kruger effect

It’s always the people with no experience in a domain thinking any profession can be automated away except theirs.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#380

Post by mizzao »

throw0101a wrote: post #325
retrochameleon wrote: post #307

I'm a heavy gamer. I like lots of strategy games. Sometimes I look at our country like a strategy game: where we are investing resources, infrastructure planning and investment, active problems or threats and how they are being prioritized and handled, managing citizen happiness, etc. The last 10-20 years feel like a massive lost opportunity to invest in some of these improvements and forward-thinking planning. In th…

> I'm a heavy gamer. I like lots of strategy games. Politicians should have to play several hundred hours of 4X games (Civ 4/5/6/7, Stellaris, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron) before they're allowed to run for office. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4X If they can't beat some of these videos at the highest difficulty settings they should not be allowed to break things IRL.

Can confirm, building a startup scratches much of the same itch as playing Civ — I would say one of the primary differences is that it requires immense growth in interpersonal skills to be able to execute any strategy effectively.
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