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This map is not upside down

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Re: This map is not upside down

#371

Post by Tarq0n »

dbl000 wrote: post #64

Relatedly there's a Map Men video on why north is up. [0] I don't buy the whole top is 'good' and lower is 'bad'. I think the bias is just a lot of the groups that made maps were located north(ish) and traveling roughly southward which made it a convenient orientation, especially during the age of sail. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B14Gtm2Z_70

The discomfort visible in many commenter's reactions is telling, even if it isn't a good vs bad dichotomy.

The fact of the matter is that any data visualization brings with it some advantages and drawbacks. This can be projection, orientation or centering related. Acknowledging these drawbacks can be useful, and so is trying out alternative representations of the data every so often.

One thing I think can be acknowledged is that the poor job traditional maps do of representing Africa has affected policy towards countries in the continent for the worse. For instance misguided infrastructure projects.

Re: This map is not upside down

#372

Post by dragonwriter »

mrighele wrote: post #362
vasco wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West and east don't make sense on a globe. It makes a little sense as relative directions to some point. But it makes no sense to use them as topological area boundaries. It's a globe, nothing is "in the west". Things can just be "west of something" which really just is shorthand for "you'll get there faster going west than east".

Until just a few centuries ago most of the world population was split between Europe (West) and East Asia (East). Plenty of people genuinely believed that if you were to navigate to the West of Europe you would fall off the border of the world (well, some still do).

> Until just a few centuries ago most of the world population was split between Europe (West) and East Asia (East).

An outright majority of the world’s population was, and still is, in Asia, so I'm not sure what this split between is supposed to refer to. If you mean Europe was #2 behind Asi, that was true until the 1980s if the Americas are counted as one continent, otherwise the 1990s when Africa took the #2 spot, not “a couple centuries ago”.

Re: This map is not upside down

#373

Post by spragl »

extraduder_ire wrote: post #316
idkfasayer wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about East - West? https://m.xkcd.com/503/

Strangely, most people "Orient" a map with the east on the right hand side and the Occident on the left hand side.

That is just equivalent to North pointing up. Many commenters have explained why that is the most prevalent.

I mean, except that you could of course have the subterranean view of the World, with North point up, East to the left, and West to the right, if you so like... Confusion guaranteed!

Re: This map is not upside down

#374

Post by watwut »

parineum wrote: post #330
whstl wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the southern hemisphere, the only thing more patronizing and infuriating than this is the insistence from the same moralizing group that my country isn’t part of “The West”, despite it being physically and culturally there.

"The West" is Western Europe and it's colonial/cultural derivatives. It hasn't been a directional term for centuries. Everyone intuitively knows this based on the usage but, every now and then, someone like you thinks they are clever and nobody else understands.

People on HN regularly argue that Spaniards are not part of the west and it has nothing to do with direction nor culture. It is because a lot of mumbo jumbo that tries to imply but not openly say that they are not white enough.

Re: This map is not upside down

#375

Post by kqr »

whstl wrote: post #186
patternMachine wrote: post #48

The moralizing that always accompanies (not) upside down maps is so tedious. It's a genuinely interesting example of how something can look so wrong and yet not be wrong at all. To try to extend that "wrong" feeling to some kind of moral failure on the viewers part is just silly. You (or society) are not a bad or prejudiced person for thinking this way, it's just that nearly all maps produced have chosen a different…

As someone from the southern hemisphere, the only thing more patronizing and infuriating than this is the insistence from the same moralizing group that my country isn’t part of “The West”, despite it being physically and culturally there.

I try to say "countries around the northern Atlantic" because that's really what people mean by "West".

Re: This map is not upside down

#376

Post by matrss »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #247
a3w wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For clarity, you cannot call north up: North is not up. That would make left west. When standing in front of a building, with map in hand, and asking people to go start going to the street in the south, then left, I mean left in direction of travel, which is east. Not left in direction of map conventions, which for people who cannot read a compass is probably west.

North being up doesn't make left west because left is relative to front, not up, and front can easily change directions whereas up cannot (at least not relative to the direction of gravity). It happens that when you're looking at a map mounted on a wall with north up, west is left, but if you were to turn 90° left yourself, then west would be straight (front). This is all consistent with north being up.

But if you define "up" as the direction opposite to where gravity pulls things (which very much makes sense) then there is no possible situation in which north being up would be correct either. A compass needle never points up. You are mounting a map of something horizontal onto a vertical surface, it is just as correct - or depending on the alignment of the wall arguably even more correct - to put east up. You can only ever get at most two directions correct, after all.

Re: This map is not upside down

#377

Post by kqr »

mckeed wrote: post #109
the-grump wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree completely. Your map should be bottom-heavy for stability.

Also if the map is flat on a table, more stuff is closer to you.

But if you pin it to a wall, it's easier to reach the top pins with the most earthful bits at face height if the earthful bits are at the top.

Re: This map is not upside down

#378

Post by blenderob »

vasco wrote: post #337
whstl wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the southern hemisphere, the only thing more patronizing and infuriating than this is the insistence from the same moralizing group that my country isn’t part of “The West”, despite it being physically and culturally there.

West and east don't make sense on a globe. It makes a little sense as relative directions to some point. But it makes no sense to use them as topological area boundaries. It's a globe, nothing is "in the west". Things can just be "west of something" which really just is shorthand for "you'll get there faster going west than east".

Absolutely! On the globe all countries lie to the west of something and simultaneously lie to the east of something.

Re: This map is not upside down

#379

Post by dudeinjapan »

isqueiros wrote: post #361
j4coh wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t seem to even get this effect, the map looks upside down not mind blowing. If I turn a mug over it’s not a mind blowing new thing, it’s an upside down mug.

a mug cannot function when upside down and yet when you change the arbitrary orientation of a map it can still function the same you literally missed the point of the _title_ of the article, quite impressive

ohhh… so thats why my coffee keeps spilling everywhere. I just thought my mug was defective. Hole faces upward: got it. These things really should come with an instruction manual.

Re: This map is not upside down

#380

Post by [deleted] »

blenderob wrote: post #378
vasco wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West and east don't make sense on a globe. It makes a little sense as relative directions to some point. But it makes no sense to use them as topological area boundaries. It's a globe, nothing is "in the west". Things can just be "west of something" which really just is shorthand for "you'll get there faster going west than east".

Absolutely! On the globe all countries lie to the west of something and simultaneously lie to the east of something.

[deleted]
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