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Re: 996

#371

Post by majormajor »

graemep wrote: post #205
whstl wrote: post #177

996 is just theater for investors. Saw this happening even at YC companies. There was always that stupid expectation of overworking, staying until 9. The reality is that people twiddle thumbs. And the disorganization and micromanagement power plays are enough to negate any additional worked hour. This ranges from pure disorganization in terms of what to build to having 3 hour meetings with the whole fucking company w…

> 996 is just theater for investors. Investors who have not heard of the research into productivity that says long hours have no significant benefit for skilled work? Who have not heard of diminishing returns? Who have no experience of the reality of working long hours themselves?

It's easy to believe that on average longer hours may not have much marginal improvement to productivity but that for you specifically they do.

And being able to convince yourself that your team is special, not just average, is an ability that is more often found in people taking big crazy swings.

Especially if you have a history of working overtime in crunch time in your own career in the past and believe that you couldn't have finished certain projects on time if not. (Which could be different than working long hours every day for years, but then you're back to the potential for nuance around "on average" and "for me and my team, because we're exceptional.")

Re: 996

#372

Post by sureglymop »

grantdong wrote: post #18

In China, its birthplace, '996' always seen as practice of failed management. Because for at least half of the 72-hour workweek, most employee will mentally checkout (in Chinese we call this 摸鱼). Although middle managers know their subordinates are inefficient, they still impose working hour KPI on their team, so they can demonstrate their own value to upper management.

It really seems not very different from how it is outside of China. I feel, as with may things, there is a lot of western propaganda about the "communist enemy" that remains.

I mean thinking about it rationally, China is huge. It doesn't make sense to use the '996 practice' to judge the morality of all of China.

Re: 996

#373

Post by insane_dreamer »

I hate that culture--what is it for? So some VC can get their return? If it's truly mission-driven, yes. And I've done it for the mission. But I'm not going to do it just so the "company can grow" and someone can get their 10x return, or the CEO or founders can get their big paycheck. Once VCs get involved, there is no mission other than to increase the return.

Also, if you want to work 996, you'd better not have a family -- if you do, you're neglecting them whether or not you think you can "juggle things" just fine.

Re: 996

#374

Post by a3fckx »

The idea of putting in the hours for yourself makes sense, something you'll own upto and like doing it, not because you have to.

Expecting someone else with far lesser incentives is not even sustainable. I remember putting in a lot of hours at my previous company, i enjoyed doing it and i was learning at my first job, there are weeks where i put in those hours but those are for myself and what i'm building and it's insanity to expect that even to myself.

The metric is the output, independent of time you put in; alot of startups need those hours at times it's important to get things done but setting it as a culture and take pride is so naive of a thought.

i love high performing individuals delivering more output, than subpar individuals working delivering much lesser value and not just working for sake of it.

Re: 996

#375

Post by wiseowise »

hedora wrote: post #145

All the engineers that I’ve worked with that were doing 12 hour x 6 days ended up being drags on the rest of the team. Their 2am fever dream garbage would hit prod, and then it’d take a full time support person to apologize to customers while two full time engineers wasted a week refactoring production into something that worked. Anyway, I’ve noticed I can only work 6 hours if I write code myself, but can easily hit…

10-4 is great, but that’s only 30 hours a week. Where did you get 40?

Re: 996

#376

Post by biophysboy »

drob518 wrote: post #95

Having worked at several startups, I’ll say that 996 is a lie. The best startups were ones that worked HARD for 8 to 10 hours, 5 days per week. What I always found at companies “working” 996 (or something close) was that mostly everyone was hanging out in the break room playing foosball or video games (or watching someone else do it). Sure, they were “in the office,” but the productivity of those hours beyond 8 was r…

That’s the thing about 996; it’s not just a culture of overwork, it’s a culture of lying

Re: 996

#377

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

graemep wrote: post #260
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We probably need to rethink how companies are structured - there are (many) companies with revenues greater than most countries but are (in theory) dictatorships with no official ability to change course if the one guy who owns the shares does not want to. Who is the ‘demos’ in a company? Who gets a vote ? Will voting really slow things down?

> here are (many) companies with revenues greater than most countries IS that true? What do you define as the revenue of a country? Tax revenues? That is just the government. GDP/GNP/GNI? That comparison for that should be profit, and only a handful of really big companies (Saudi Aramco, Apple, that sort of size) have a profit as large as the GDP of mid-size middle income countries (e.g. Sri Lanka) or small rich coun…

gdp is a revenue like number, not a profit like number.

Re: 996

#379

Post by wiseowise »

santiagobasulto wrote: post #303

You're all answering from a very privileged standpoint. I started my career in tech from a small town in Argentina. When broadband was prevalent around the world (2012) I was still working with a dial up connection on a $200 computer. I grew up seeing what poverty and lack of opportunities does to people, and I was determined to break away from that. I got a job at a startup by sheer luck, and it completely changed m…

I went from piss dirt poor to relatively wealthy situation – this is bad. Just because I went through bad, doesn’t mean someone else had to suffer it.

Re: 996

#380

Post by johnsmith1840 »

ponector wrote: post #358
santiagobasulto wrote: post #303

You're all answering from a very privileged standpoint. I started my career in tech from a small town in Argentina. When broadband was prevalent around the world (2012) I was still working with a dial up connection on a $200 computer. I grew up seeing what poverty and lack of opportunities does to people, and I was determined to break away from that. I got a job at a startup by sheer luck, and it completely changed m…

>> people claiming this is "bad There is no circumstances when it is good. Especially if it is pushed by employer/manager. If you want to work 996 or 7 days per week, or without annual vacations - it's your choice but no way anyone should be pushed to work that way.

Vacation and choice is a luxury the majority of the world does not have, you are making his point.

The mentality they are saying is the mentality that has given you the luxury of vacation and choice. The west did not rise to its place without an incredible amount of suffering.

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