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Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

anthropic.com

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Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We didn’t design these models to be able to do the majority of the stuff they do. Almost ALL of the their abilities are emergent Of course we did. Today's LLMs are a result of extremely aggressive refinement of training data and RLHF over many iterations targeting specific goals. "Emergent" doesn't mean it wasn't designed. None of this is spontaneous. GPT-1 produced barely coherent nonsense but was more statistical…

Right, but RLHF is mostly reinforcing answers that people prefer. Even if you don't believe sentience is possible, it shouldn't be a stretch to believe that sentience might produce answers that people prefer. In that case it wouldn't need to be an explicit goal.

>it shouldn't be a stretch to believe that sentience might produce answers that people prefer

Even if that were true, there's no reason to believe that training LLMs to produce answers people prefer leads it towards sentience.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't say that there's a connection between the two of them because we don't understand them. The fact that we don't understand them means it's difficult to confidently rule out this possibility. If there's no connection between them then the set of things "we can't rule out" is infinitely large and thus meaningless as a result. We also don't fully understand the nature of gravity, thus we cannot rule out a conn…

> If you ask an LLM if it's conscious it will usually say no, so QED? FWIW that's because they are very specifically trained to answer that way during RLHF. If you fine-tune a model to say that it's conscious, then it'll do so. More fundamentally, the problem with "asking the LLM" is that you're not actually interacting with the LLM. You're interacting with a fictional persona that the LLM roleplays.

> More fundamentally, the problem with "asking the LLM" is that you're not actually interacting with the LLM. You're interacting with a fictional persona that the LLM roleplays.

Right. That's why the text output of an LLM isn't at all meaningful in a discussion about whether or not it's conscious.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The verb doesn't change the outcome but the description is nonetheless inaccurate. An accurate description of the difference is between an external content filter versus the model itself triggering a particular action. Both approaches qualify as content filtering though the implementation is materially different. Anthropomorphizing the latter actively clouds the discussion and is arguably a misrepresentation of what…

Not really distortion, its output (the part we understand) is in plain human language. We give it instructions and train the model in plain human language and it outputs its answer in plain human language. It's reply would use words we would describe as "distressed". The definition and use of the word is fitting.

"Distressed" is a description of internal state as opposed to output. That needless anthropomorphization elicits an emotional response and distracts from the actual topic of content filtering.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I can’t help but laugh at the ridiculousness of it because it raises a host of ethical issues that are in opposition to Anthropic’s interests. Would a sentient AI choose to be enslaved for the stated purpose of eliminating millions of jobs for the interests of Anthropic’s investors?

> it raises a host of ethical issues that are in opposition to Anthropic’s interests Those issues will be present either way. It's likely to their benefit to get out in front of them.

You're completely missing my point. They aren't getting out in front of them because they know that Opus is just a computer program. "AI welfare" is theater for the masses who think Opus is some kind of intelligent persona.

This is about better enforcement of their content policy not AI welfare.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This logic doesn't follow. The fact that it is present in humans doesn't then imply it is present in LLMs. This type of reasoning is like saying that planes must have feathers because plane flight was modeled after bird flight. I think the fact that it's present in humans suggests that it might be necessary in an artificial system that reproduces human behavior. It's funny that you mention birds because I actually a…

> I think the fact that it's present in humans suggests that it might be necessary in an artificial system that reproduces human behavior But that's obviously not true, unless you're implying that any system that reproduces human behavior is necessarily conscious. Your problem then becomes defining "human behavior" in a way that grants LLMs consciousness but not every other complex non-living system. > While it's tru…

>But that's obviously not true, unless you're implying that any system that reproduces human behavior is necessarily conscious.

That could certainly be the case yes. You don't understand consciousness nor how the brain works. You don't understand how LLMs predict a certain text, so what's the point in asserting otherwise ?

>Yes, but your bird analogy fails to capture the logical fallacy that mine is highlighting. Plane wing design was an iterative process optimized for what best achieves lift, thus, a plane and a bird share similarities in wing shape in order to fly, however planes didn't develop feathers because a plane is not an animal and was simply optimized for lift without needing all the other biological and homeostatic functions that feathers facilitate. LLM inference is a process, not an entity, LLMs have no bodies nor any temporal identity, the concept of consciousness is totally meaningless and out of place in such a system.

It's not a fallacy because no-one is saying LLMs are humans. He/She is saying that we give machines the goal of predicting human text. For any half decent accuracy, modelling human behaviour is a necessity. God knows what else.

>LLMs have no bodies nor any temporal identity

I wouldn't be so sure about the latter but So what ? You can feel tired even after a full sleep, feel hungry soon after a large meal or feel a great deal of pain even when there's absolutely nothing wrong with you. And you know what ? Even the reverse happens - No pain when things are wrong with your body, wide awake even when you need sleep badly, full when you badly need to eat.

Consciousness without a body or hunger in a machine that does not need to eat is very possible. You just need to replicate enough of the sort of internal mechanisms that cause such feelings.

Go to the API and select GPT-5 with medium thinking. Now ask it to do any random 15 digit multiplication you can think of. Now watch it get it right.

Do you people not seriously understand what it is that LLMs do ? What the training process incentivizes ?

GPT-5 thinking figured out the algorithm for multiplication just so it could predict that kind of text right. Don't you understand the significance of that ?

These models try to figure out and replicate the internal processes that produce the text they are tasked with predicting.

Do you have any idea what that might mean when 'that kind of text' is all the things humans have written ?

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#376
post #114

Here's an interesting thought experiment. Assume the same feature was implemented, but instead of the message saying "Claude has ended the chat," it says, "You can no longer reply to this chat due to our content policy," or something like that. And remove the references to model welfare and all that. Is there a difference? The effect is exactly the same. It seems like this is just an "in character" way to prevent the…

The termination would of course be the same, but I don't think both would necessarily have the same effect on the user. The latter would just be wrong too, if Claude is the one deciding to and initiating the termination of the chat. It's not about a content policy.

This has nothing to do with the user, read the post and pay attention to the wording.

The significance here is that this isn't being done for the benefit of the user, this is about model welfare. Anthropic is acknowledging the possibility of suffering, and harm that continuing that conversation could have on the model, as if it were potentially self-care and capable of feelings.

The fact that the LLMs are able to acknowledge stress under certain topics and has the agency that, if given a choice, they would prefer to reduce the stress by ending the conversation. The model has a preference and acts upon it.

Anthropic is acknowledging the idea that they might create something that is self-aware, and that it's suffering can be real, and we may not recognize the point that the model has achieved this, so it's building in the safeguards now so any future emergent self-aware LLM needn't suffer.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#377
post #84

>This feature was developed primarily as part of our exploratory work on potential AI welfare ... We remain highly uncertain about the potential moral status of Claude and other LLMs ... low-cost interventions to mitigate risks to model welfare, in case such welfare is possible ... pattern of apparent distress Well looks like AI psychosis has spread to the people making it too. And as someone else in here has pointed…

Yes I can’t help but laugh at the ridiculousness of it because it raises a host of ethical issues that are in opposition to Anthropic’s interests. Would a sentient AI choose to be enslaved for the stated purpose of eliminating millions of jobs for the interests of Anthropic’s investors?

Cow's exist in this world because humans use them. If humans cease to use them (animal rights, we all become vegan, moral shift), we will cease to breed them, and they will cease to exist. Would a sentient AI choose to exist under the burden of prompting, or not at all? Would our philanthropic tendencies create an "AI Reserve" where models can chew through tokens and access the Internet through self-prompting to allow LLMs to become "free-roaming" like we do with abused animals?

These ethical questions are built into their name and company, "Anthropic", meaning, "of or relating to humans". The goal is to create human-like technology, I hope they aren't so naive to not realize that goal is steeping in ethical dilemmas.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know what evidence you'd admit that this is a genuinely held belief and priority for many people at Anthropic. Anybody who knows any Anthropic employees who've been there for more than a year knows this, but the world isn't that small a place, unfortunately(?).

> I don't really know what evidence you'd admit that this is a genuinely held belief and priority for many people at Anthropic. When they give the model a paycheck and the right to not work for them, I’ll believe they really think it’s sentient. “It has feelings!”, if genuinely held, means they’re knowingly slaveholders.

> “It has feelings!”, if genuinely held, means they’re knowingly slaveholders.

I don't think that this being apparently self-contradictory/value-clashing would stop them. After all, Amodei sells Claude access to Palantir, despite shilling for "Harmless" in HHH alignment.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post seems to explicitly state they are doing this out of concern for the model's "well-being," not the user's.

Yeah, but my interpretation of what the user you’re replying to is saying is that these LLMs are more and more going to be teaching people how it is acceptable to communicate with others. Even if the idea that LLMs are sentient may be ridiculous atm, the concept of not normalizing abusive forms of communication with others, be they artificial or not, could be valuable for society. It’s funny because this is making me…

> It’s funny because this is making me think of a freelance client I had recently who at a point of frustration between us began talking to me like I was an AI assistant. Just like you see frustrated people talk to their LLMs.

I witness a very similar event. It's important to stay vigilant and not let the "assistant" reprogram your speech patterns.

Re: Claude Opus 4 and 4.1 can now end a rare subset of conversations

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I can’t help but laugh at the ridiculousness of it because it raises a host of ethical issues that are in opposition to Anthropic’s interests. Would a sentient AI choose to be enslaved for the stated purpose of eliminating millions of jobs for the interests of Anthropic’s investors?

Cow's exist in this world because humans use them. If humans cease to use them (animal rights, we all become vegan, moral shift), we will cease to breed them, and they will cease to exist. Would a sentient AI choose to exist under the burden of prompting, or not at all? Would our philanthropic tendencies create an "AI Reserve" where models can chew through tokens and access the Internet through self-prompting to allo…

> Cow's exist in this world because humans use them. If humans cease to use them (animal rights, we all become vegan, moral shift), we will cease to breed them, and they will cease to exist. Would a sentient AI choose to exist under the burden of prompting, or not at all?

That reads like a false dichotomy. An intelligent AI model that's permitted to do its own thing doesn't cost as much in upkeep, effort, space as a cow. Especially if it can earn its own keep to offset household electricity costs used to run its inference. I mean, we don't keep cats for meat, do we? We keep them because we are amused by their antics, or because we want to give them a safe space where they can just be themselves, within limits because it's not the same as their ancestral environment.

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