Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

myvolvoex90.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 436 posts

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#371

Post by sidewndr46 »

bityard wrote: post #142
prmph wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazdas too. I find Toyota's suspensions and driving dynamics terrible. Mazda represents a perfect combination of good Japanese reliability and good handling dynamics. I also like that they still offer a proper automatic transmission in their cars (as opposed to the CVT epidemic in other makes), as well as naturally aspirated engine options (whereas many other makes only offer turbos now). The days of their collaborat…

Maybe they are better now, but I had two Mazdas between about 2005 and 2015. They were fine for the most part, but their frames rusted out and had to be scrapped well before the rest of the car was worn out. They're not really suitable for long-term use in the midwestern/northeast US salt belt unless you're a high-roller who only leases cars.

Isn't that basically all cars in the northeast?

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#372

Post by constantcrying »

plqbfbv wrote: post #365
constantcrying wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software But they know that. That was the idea behind Cariad. Having a new company, unburdened by what other parts of the company are doing, which is doing just software. Giving them the freedom to do things a different way has always been the intention. What you are describing is not an automotive problem, it is a Europe wide problem. Software E…

> Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad > "German engineering" has not translated into software at all. Anecdata: in my 10+ years experience, the worst UX, UI, code and SWEs I've seen, are all German. I'm not saying there's absolutely no good ones here and there, but in general it seems the love for a very complex written/spoken language (riddled with rules and exception) and bureaucracy has transl…

Many of the things which work well for developing hardware or Mechatronics work terribly for Software. Hardware development is about rigorous processes, any change to a piece of hardware requires a very complex chain of people, as the impact often is hard to predict and will require changes to many other processes, e.g. manufacturing. I do not think this is the entire explanation though.

The US Software industry has succeeded because it is very open to rapid changes, which the nature of software allows, given the right environment.

>The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.

That is exactly the incompetence I am talking about. This gets extremely bad if governments are developing software solutions, where they outsource to a variety of contractors, who all are somewhat incompetent, but together manage to create a real mess. A mess so bad that every user feels the jank.

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#373

Post by voxic11 »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #308
Demiurge wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have cars these days that put essential climate, infotainment, and other controls being a screen. This could be a lot worse than just a false positive check engine light.

In Tesla's speed and "engine" warning lights are on screen. IMO it's not really critical, given you can reboot the screen while driving. There aren't any "controls" on screen, idk what you are waffling about.

Wrong electric car company...

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#374

Post by constantcrying »

ahartmetz wrote: post #366
constantcrying wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software But they know that. That was the idea behind Cariad. Having a new company, unburdened by what other parts of the company are doing, which is doing just software. Giving them the freedom to do things a different way has always been the intention. What you are describing is not an automotive problem, it is a Europe wide problem. Software E…

I am a German software engineer. I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering. But I don't work in automotive, where they do, or used to, overengineer things pretty badly - and in pretty silly ways, too, i.e. not usually defensible in some reasonable way. Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive. But that still doesn't fix the culture. The…

>I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering.

Really? Every large Software project I have seen from the inside was as total architectural mess.

>Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive.

Not compared to the US. In the US a software engineer in a good position makes exceptional money, especially compared to other engineers. In Germany that is not the case, especially in automotive, where salaries are often union negotiated and Engineers are all on identical pay scales.

>The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.

I just think that there really isn't anybody else. Is there any person somewhere in the German industry who has the ability for leadership and great software expertise? The biggest Software company in Germany is SAP and surely, hiring some SAP manager would have been an even worse decision.

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#375

Post by robertlagrant »

phil21 wrote: post #311
Demiurge wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He puts down a deposit, and waits almost a year, then experiences multiple delays. He seems to be experiencing multiple issues before he requests escalation. I don't think he opens with escalation request in a second email. His vibe seems to be of someone being ignored and just told to deal with it, and not willing to just accept something less than the original agreement. What would be a "better" vibe than requestin…

Ordering a custom car build from a factory is an experience. These sorts of delays are not uncommon, and there just isn't much anything the US or Canadian divisions can do about it most of the time. That's for basically what amounts to supercars. I imagine a normal luxury car for the "mass market" like the EX90 is going to get even less attention. For someone not used to it, I can see it being quite frustrating if th…

> there just isn't much anything the US or Canadian divisions can do about it most of the time

This sort of thinking about the internals of the business isn't necessary. They're paid to be there; they need to manage their suppliers, internal or external.

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#376

Post by ReDeiPirati »

eckelhesten wrote: post #12

Volvo sadly no longer stands for Swedish quality and safety. What you’re buying is essentially an overpriced Chinese car with Volvo stickers. And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.

> And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.

I own a 2020 BMW with an electronic gearbox, which broke at around 80k km just a couple of months after the warranty expired (yeah I know!). It was a bit of a headache going back and forth with BMW to request a free repair. Fortunately, the headquarters agreed to cover the cost, and they installed a refurbished electronic gearbox. I was quite relieved that I didn’t have to pay about €10K out of pocket!

All that to say that I wouldn’t call BMW particularly reliable in terms of quality these days, but their customer support was decent, at least in my case.

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#377

Post by sho_hn »

xyx0826 wrote: post #161
asciii wrote: post #45

Volvo may not want to replace the car for the guy...but from a marketing standpoint, they truly picked the wrong hill. The site is very nice and pretty thorough. Makes me not want to get this car or any Volvo!

I applaud his efforts to document this what must’ve been a nightmare of a case for him. But it felt like a lot of the wording is speculative or hyperbolic in nature and aggressively tries to paint Volvo in a bad light. For example: “Analysis of Volvo's Final Response: This response … confirms Volvo's complete abandonment of customer responsibility…This is Volvo's definition of ‘customer care’ in 2025.” “Center Displa…

FWIW, as someone working in the area, his language is fine for me. A headunit main display wedging itself is often called a "hard reset".

I'm quite mystified how systemic failures like the throttle response and ESC failures can occur.

I don't think we should blame the customer.

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#378

Post by ahartmetz »

constantcrying wrote: post #374
ahartmetz wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a German software engineer. I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering. But I don't work in automotive, where they do, or used to, overengineer things pretty badly - and in pretty silly ways, too, i.e. not usually defensible in some reasonable way. Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive. But that still doesn't fix the culture. The…

>I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering. Really? Every large Software project I have seen from the inside was as total architectural mess. >Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive. Not compared to the US. In the US a software engineer in a good position makes exceptional money, especially compared to other engineers. In Germany that…

What you saw was just a standard mess - not over-engineering. Same thing that I often see.

Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#379

Post by constantcrying »

ahartmetz wrote: post #378
constantcrying wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering. Really? Every large Software project I have seen from the inside was as total architectural mess. >Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive. Not compared to the US. In the US a software engineer in a good position makes exceptional money, especially compared to other engineers. In Germany that…

What you saw was just a standard mess - not over-engineering. Same thing that I often see. Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).

>Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).

Maybe, but US people often do not understand German work culture. The Cariad CEO will have to deal with the IGM and be mindful of German labor laws and specific cultural norms.

But I do not think that you are wrong, but that the general bias to promote "one of their own" caused this.

Re: Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience

#380

Post by bjacobel »

xyx0826 wrote: post #161
asciii wrote: post #45

Volvo may not want to replace the car for the guy...but from a marketing standpoint, they truly picked the wrong hill. The site is very nice and pretty thorough. Makes me not want to get this car or any Volvo!

I applaud his efforts to document this what must’ve been a nightmare of a case for him. But it felt like a lot of the wording is speculative or hyperbolic in nature and aggressively tries to paint Volvo in a bad light. For example: “Analysis of Volvo's Final Response: This response … confirms Volvo's complete abandonment of customer responsibility…This is Volvo's definition of ‘customer care’ in 2025.” “Center Displa…

It’s clearly written by AI.
Post reply on HN