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Why English doesn't use accents

deadlanguagesociety.com

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Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, the book was written in 1972. I mean "there were some people", not all people - Thomas, in the quote, came from Paris and spoke French. He did not learn a regional language. I don't mean 'many regions' because the only example I had was one region. The fact that there was at least one region where local French people, in a region which had been part of France seemingly since at least the Middle Ages, did not sp…

"Over 50 in rural communities" in one of the more sparsely populated areas of France makes for a very small slice of the population even in that area, and even then, as pointed out, French is spoken by everyone. On top of that, it is more "anyone who speaks limousin is likely over 50, and in a rural community", than "anyone over 50 in rural communities in that area likely speaks Limousin". There are 10k speakers of L…

> and even then, as pointed out, French is spoken by everyone.

Yes, as even the Malevil quote I gave pointed out. (At least by school age.)

> On top of that, it is more

The book was written over 50 years ago, so the Wikipedia article about present day use of Limousin isn't all that indicative of what it was like for the adult characters in the book, who would have been born before 1950.

> There are 10k speakers of Limousin

Why are you being so nit-picky? Look, this is a fictional place and the specific local language is never stated. I just today read the Wikipedia entry which give info about the location.

I specifically picked out Limousin, yes, because it fit the area, and because I could quote how the Limousin language was more widely spoken when the book was written than now.

But as the text I quoted says "Limousin ... is a dialect of the Occitan language". Wikipedia says there are about 200,000 speakers of Occitan, so that's the more relevant comparison, and "Though it was still an everyday language for most of the rural population of southern France well into the 20th century, the language is now declining in every region where it was spoken." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language

It seems to me that when Malevil was written, Occitan was still widely spoken as a first language in the area. Wikipedia says the author was living in the area when he wrote the book, so he should know.

The only reason I mentioned it was because you wrote "Finding anyone who even spoke a regional dialect would've been a novelty, let alone one who grew up speaking it before French." while the book, written by the French novelist Robert Merle - Wikipedia informs me he was "a household name in France, with the author repeatedly called the Alexandre Dumas of the 20th century" - comes across that speaking in patois was not a novelty but simply something expected, and which effectively all locals spoke.

I simply cannot reconcile your surprise with my reading and limited understanding except by assuming it's from before your time, from a mostly forgotten era.

> I suppose I grew up learning about the various dialects in France

That's .. kinda the issue, isn't? In Malevil the local language patois is not seen as a dialect of French, as I quoted, it was a language learned in school.

Wikipedia says it's more related to Catalan than French.

Why do you describe it as dialect of French?

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way of saying this is that spoken English has a lot of inbuilt, inherent error correct-ability, ala a very large minimum Hamming distance between spoken words/phrases. I always found French to be very much the opposite in spoken form, due to the 'consonnes finales muettes' and liaison and élision, along with the large amount of homonyms and general colloquialism used in everyday speech. Yet in written form, i…

> I always found French to be very much the opposite in spoken form, due to the 'consonnes finales muettes' and liaison and élision, along with the large amount of homonyms and general colloquialism used in everyday speech. It is not that different from English in that respect. I found both to be quite difficult compared to e.g. German, which is very regular, or Spanish (which is annoying grammar-wise but straightfor…

> I will never be able to pronounce correctly a word I never heard before.

This happens not infrequently to native English speakers. It's especially prominent for people who read a lot when they're young and develop a large vocabulary that doesn't get socialized until much later. My English teacher, of all people, was notorious for this.

Real life examples from native speakers: Emphasizing the wrong syllable in "forage", "respite", and "parameter". Pronouncing "draught" like "fraught". Softening "chasm" and "chaos". And an extra syllable (long e sound) in "homogeneous".

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#373
post #355

Do the tittles on `i` and `j` count as diacritics? In English those vowel symbols never appear without their tittles. (In contrast, the related vowel symbol `y`, which is like an `ij` combo and is named "Greek I" in French, never appears with tittles!) In some sense, the glyphs are idiomatically atomic with the diacritics permanently stuck to them.

I don't think so; the tittle is part of the lowercase form of the letter. If it was a diacritic, it could appear with the uppercase forms as well.

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#374
post #12

English doesn't use accents because the speakers don't give a __ about the correspondence between the written form and the pronunciation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti

Indeed, you could never tell how an English word is pronounced unless you “just know”. And then it's still inconsistent (e.g. finite / infinite).

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#375
post #241
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as i understand it, english is actually 3-5 other languages in a trench coat.

At least 3: ~26% Germanic ~29% Latin ~29% French ~16% Other RobWords covers this really well: https://youtu.be/PCE4C9GvqI0?si=4Wd6NFus4v1YqmC3

It seems hard to measure with any kind of objectivity here, considering how much Latin is in French (and even modern German) as well.

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's how "sh" is pronounced, not how "s" is pronounced same pronunciation of sh in ship is found in - sugar - sure - machine - Chicago - mustache - sheikh - nation (!!!!) Can you notice that some of those words do not have any "s" in them? English doesn't make any sense.

Yes, and how do those entirely true observations connect to the non-use of diacritics in English? I pointed out the ship example from the text, which was used to demonstrate how "this early French influence over English, which arose from the Norman Conquest, is the beginning of the reason why English is written without accent marks. ... This was the French habit that the Normans brought to England: the use of extra l…

> "is the beginning of the reason why English is written without accent marks" > sh, th, ee, oo, ou

That's cool 'n all, but I believe that only applies to French writing in English for English people.

Many languages have combinations of letters that have a single sound, it's no excuse for not having accents.

In German one can write strasse and straße or müller and mueller (different writing, same sound). They too don't have accents, but words written differently also sound different: schon = "already" and schön = "beautiful".

But German, on one hand retained diacritic marks, on the other it's also almost deterministic about pronunciation.

a it's always /a/

ä it's always /ɛ/ or /ə/ like e

sch it's always /ʃ/ as in schule

ch it's always /x/ after a, o, u and /ç/ after e, i

and so on

English doesn't use diacritics, IMO, because English doesn't make sense, it's a pastiche of lowest common denominators, so fck diacritics, they are too hard, let's write words as we like and pronounce them the way we feel they should sound, regardless of how they are written.

But it could use accents, for example rècord and recòrd, present and presènt, pérmit and permìt it's just they never thought it could be useful...

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#377
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something you speakers of non-phonetic languages cannot fully grasp, I'm afraid! We Italians, when we were children, we were taught to read based on the written letters, and we were able to read any word. It was normal, during primary school, to pronounce a word correctly and then ask the teacher what it meant. This is something you can not do in English. And the converse was true as well! An Italian child is…

Yes, but Italy had to centralize its language in order to accomplish this. 1000 Italian dialects were suppressed in a very heavyweight process. (And probably some people didn't like speaking Florentine, which became modern Italian.) English is complicated because it's decentralized and there is no authority to regularize it. Which is a feature, not a bug.

You are wrong on several levels.

1 - Being fluent in the national language does not prevent people from maintaining their dialects in parallel.

2 - Whether a language is phonetic has no relation to political issues concerning dialects.

3 - Whether a language is phonetic has no relation to whether people like to use it.

4 - English got decentralized starting with the Age of Sail, but the lack of correspondence between written and oral forms is systemic and older than that.

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> excessive writing marks In English I need to find how each word is pronounced individually. What the hell is the difference between "men" and "man"? What's the difference between "bitch" and "beach"? Why "though" sounds closer to "throw" than "through" or "thought"? Those differences are encoded in a unclear way that there are more exceptions than rules. Portuguese (my native language) is not perfect in that sense,…

I think that's probably more because English uses etymological orthography. So spelling rules are based on four distinct "primary" systems of phonics that can be used depending on whether the word or morpheme has a Germanic, Greek, Latin or French origin. (Yes I know French comes from Latin origin, but the spelling rules differ depending on whether the word was imported directly from Latin, or came in via Norman Fren…

>but the spelling rules differ depending on whether the word was imported directly from Latin, or came in via Norman French

In fact it can be even more complicated because in English the words can come from Norman dialects and "typical" French simultaneously. For example, warden and guardian come from the same word in Old French, the former is closer to how Normans pronounce it and the latter is closer to its modern French pronunciation.

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#379
post #355

Do the tittles on `i` and `j` count as diacritics? In English those vowel symbols never appear without their tittles. (In contrast, the related vowel symbol `y`, which is like an `ij` combo and is named "Greek I" in French, never appears with tittles!) In some sense, the glyphs are idiomatically atomic with the diacritics permanently stuck to them.

I don't think so; the tittle is part of the lowercase form of the letter. If it was a diacritic, it could appear with the uppercase forms as well.

In French you can (and most people do) drop diacritics from all uppercase forms.

Re: Why English doesn't use accents

#380
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least one really obvious way to know that English is a phonetic language: fantasy authors create all sorts of made up names in their books. Sure, sometimes there are disagreements over how to pronounce these names, but generally readers come up with quite similar pronunciations.

cue GIF pronunciation war.

It's not pronounced "jraphics interchange format", therefore hard G
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