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The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

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Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And regardless of whether or not it works - it's pumping giant amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere which isn't a strictly local problem.

Any time a new technology makes people uncomfortable, someone pulls the CO₂ card. We've seen this with cryptocurrencies, electric cars, even the internet itself. But curiously, the same people rarely question the CO₂ footprint of things like gaming, streaming, international sports, live concerts, political campaigns, or even large-scale scientific research. Methane-fueled rockets and the LHC don't exactly run on sola…

Nice whataboutism, except if you had read any of my other comments in this topic you'd know that I think all of those activities need to be taken into account.

We should be evaluating every activity on benefit versus detriment when it comes to CO2, and AI hasn't passed the "more benefit than harm" threshold for most people paying attention.

Perhaps you can help me here since we seem to be on the topic - how would you rate long term benefit versus long term climate damage of AI as it exists now?

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any time a new technology makes people uncomfortable, someone pulls the CO₂ card. We've seen this with cryptocurrencies, electric cars, even the internet itself. But curiously, the same people rarely question the CO₂ footprint of things like gaming, streaming, international sports, live concerts, political campaigns, or even large-scale scientific research. Methane-fueled rockets and the LHC don't exactly run on sola…

Nice whataboutism, except if you had read any of my other comments in this topic you'd know that I think all of those activities need to be taken into account. We should be evaluating every activity on benefit versus detriment when it comes to CO2, and AI hasn't passed the "more benefit than harm" threshold for most people paying attention. Perhaps you can help me here since we seem to be on the topic - how would you…

Calling “whataboutism” is often just a way to derail those providing necessary context. It’s a rhetorical eject button — and more often than not, a sign someone isn’t arguing in good faith. But just on the off-chance you are one of "the good ones": Thank you for the clarification - and fair enough, I appreciate that you're applying the same standard broadly. That's more intellectually honest than most.

Now, do you also act on that in your private life? How beneficial, for instance, is your participation in online debate?

As for this phrase — "most people paying attention" — that’s weasel wording at its finest. It lets you both assert a consensus and discredit dissent in a single stroke. People who disagree? They’re just not paying attention, obviously. It’s a No True Scotsman — minus the kilts.

As for your question: evaluating AI's long-term benefit versus long-term climate cost is tricky because the landscape is evolving fast. But here’s a rough sketch of where I currently stand.

Short-term climate cost: Yes, significant - especially in training large models and the massive scaling of data centers. But this is neither unique to AI nor necessarily linear; newer models (like LoRA-based systems) and infrastructure optimizations already aim to cut energy use significantly.

Short-term benefit: Uneven. Entertainment chatbots? Low direct utility — though arguably high in quality-of-life value for many. Medical imaging, protein folding, logistics optimization, or disaster prediction? Substantial.

Long-term benefit: If AI continues to improve and democratize access to knowledge, diagnosis, decision-making, and resource allocation — its potential social, medical, and economic impact could be enormous. Not just "nice-to-have" but truly transformative for global efficiency and resilience.

Long-term harm: If AI remains centralized, opaque, and energy-inefficient, it could deepen inequalities, increase waste, and consolidate power dangerously.

But even if AI causes twice the CO₂-output it causes today, and would only be used for ludicrous reasons, it pales to the CO₂ pollution causes by a single day of average American warfighting ... while still - differently from war fighting - having a net-positive outcome to AI users' lives.

So to answer directly:

Right now, AI is somewhere near the threshold. It’s not obviously "worth it" for every observer, and that’s fine. But it’s also not a luxury toy — not anymore. It’s a volatile but serious tool, and whether it tips toward benefit or harm depends entirely on how we build, govern, and use it.

Let me turn the question around: What would you need to see — in outcomes, not marketing — to say: "Yes. That was worth the carbon."?

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vibe coding is something other than what I'm referring to, as you're conflating natural language programming, where you do everything that a programmer does except reading and writing syntax, with vibe coding without understanding. Traditional programming also requires iteration, testing, and debugging, so I don't see what argument you're making there. Then when you invoke 'token burn' the question is then whether de…

LLMs do not revoke ambiguity from the English language.. Look, if you prefer to use this as part of your workflow and you understand the language and paradigms being chosen by the LLM on your behalf, and can manage to produce extensible code with it, then that's a matter of preference and if you find yourself more productive that way, all power to you. But when you say English as a programming language, you're implyi…

You're mischaracterizing my position from the start. I never claimed LLMs "revoke ambiguity from the English language."

I said I'm doing everything a programmer does except writing syntax. So your argument about English being "ambiguous" misses the point. ⍵[⍋⍵]}⍨?10⍴100 is extremely precise to an APL programmer but completely ambiguous to everyone else. Meanwhile "generate 10 random integers from 1 to 100 and sort them in ascending order" is unambiguous to both humans and LLMs. The precision comes from clear specification, not syntax.

You're conflating oversight with "babysitting." When you review and validate code, that's normal engineering process whether it comes from humans or AI. If anything, managing human developers involves actual babysitting: handling office politics, mood swings, sick days, ego management, motivation issues, and interpersonal conflicts. CTOs or managers spend significant time on the human element that has nothing to do with code quality. You're calling technical review "babysitting" while ignoring that managing humans involves literal people management.

You've created a false choice between "prototype" and "production software" as if natural language programming can only produce one or the other. The architectural thinking isn't missing, it's just expressed in natural language rather than syntax. System design, scalability patterns, and business requirements understanding are all still required.

Your assumption that "cognitive load can only be decreased by an engineer who understands your product" ignores that someone can understand their own product better than contractors. You're acting like the goal is to "dismiss humans" when it's about finding more efficient ways to build software, I'd gladly hire other natural language developers with proper vetting, and I actually have plans to do so. And to be sure, I would rather hire the natural language developer who also knows syntax over one who doesn't, all else being equal. Emphasis on all else being equal.

The core issue is you're defending traditional methods on principle rather than engaging with whether the outcomes can actually be achieved differently.

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can either be right, or have friends.

You can have both things. Just don't be a dick about what you believe (at least, not to everybody).

Hey, at least you have friends.

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#375

My fintech bank, Qube, is running some sort of croudfunded investment round to add AI. It's super interesting to me in a number of ways. https://www.startengine.com/offering/qube-money The top of the list has got to be that one of their testimonials presented to investors is from "DrDeflowerMe". It's also interesting to me because they list financials which position them as unbelievably tiny: 6,215 subscribing accoun…

Your personal bank has 6,215 customers? How could they possibly cover the costs of even 1 employee?

With ~$600K/year of subscription revenue? I don't know how much they make on other bank-like functions, but I assume it's not nothing because other banks seem to survive without charging subscription fees.

I was hoping that, after going through a number of other "advanced money management" fintech banks over the years and them selling out, that going with a place that I directly paid to use would allow it to sustain independently and add features, but it seems like the other scenario I worried about became the issue: The subscription fee severely limited their membership pool.

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs do not revoke ambiguity from the English language.. Look, if you prefer to use this as part of your workflow and you understand the language and paradigms being chosen by the LLM on your behalf, and can manage to produce extensible code with it, then that's a matter of preference and if you find yourself more productive that way, all power to you. But when you say English as a programming language, you're implyi…

You're mischaracterizing my position from the start. I never claimed LLMs "revoke ambiguity from the English language." I said I'm doing everything a programmer does except writing syntax. So your argument about English being "ambiguous" misses the point. ⍵[⍋⍵]}⍨?10⍴100 is extremely precise to an APL programmer but completely ambiguous to everyone else. Meanwhile "generate 10 random integers from 1 to 100 and sort th…

The point I'm driving at is why? Why program in English if you have to go through similar rigour. If you're not actually handing off the actual engineering, you're putting the solution and having it translate to your language of preference whilst telling everyone how much more productive you are for effectively offloading the trivial part of the process. I'm not arguing that you can't get code from well defined, pedantically written requirements or pseudo code. All I'm saying is that that is less than what is claimed by ai maximalists. Also, if that's all that you're doing with your "agents" just write the code on not deal with the pitfalls?

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mischaracterizing my position from the start. I never claimed LLMs "revoke ambiguity from the English language." I said I'm doing everything a programmer does except writing syntax. So your argument about English being "ambiguous" misses the point. ⍵[⍋⍵]}⍨?10⍴100 is extremely precise to an APL programmer but completely ambiguous to everyone else. Meanwhile "generate 10 random integers from 1 to 100 and sort th…

The point I'm driving at is why? Why program in English if you have to go through similar rigour. If you're not actually handing off the actual engineering, you're putting the solution and having it translate to your language of preference whilst telling everyone how much more productive you are for effectively offloading the trivial part of the process. I'm not arguing that you can't get code from well defined, peda…

Yes, I maintain the same engineering rigor: but that rigor now goes toward solving the actual problem instead of wrestling with syntax, debugging semicolons, or managing language specific quirks. My cognitive load shifts from "how do I implement this?" to "what exactly do I want to build?" That's not a trivial difference, it's transformative.

You're calling implementation "trivial" while simultaneously arguing I should keep doing it manually. If it's trivial, why waste time on it? If it's not trivial, then automating it is obviously valuable. You can't have it both ways.

The speed difference isn't just about typing faster, it's about iteration speed. I can test ideas, refine approaches, and pivot architectural decisions in minutes and hours instead of days or weeks. When you're thinking through complex system design, that rapid feedback loop changes everything about how you solve problems.

This is like asking "why use a compiler when you could write assembly?" Higher-level abstractions aren't about reducing rigor, they're about focusing that rigor where it actually matters: on the problem domain, not the implementation mechanics.

You're defending a process based on principle rather than outcomes. I'm optimizing for results.

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And regardless of whether or not it works - it's pumping giant amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere which isn't a strictly local problem.

Any time a new technology makes people uncomfortable, someone pulls the CO₂ card. We've seen this with cryptocurrencies, electric cars, even the internet itself. But curiously, the same people rarely question the CO₂ footprint of things like gaming, streaming, international sports, live concerts, political campaigns, or even large-scale scientific research. Methane-fueled rockets and the LHC don't exactly run on sola…

> Any time a new technology makes people uncomfortable, someone pulls the CO₂ card. We've seen this with cryptocurrencies, electric cars, even the internet itself.

I actually don't recall people "pulling the CO2 card" for the Internet. I do recall people doing it for cryptocurrency; and they were correct to do so. Even proof of stake is still incredibly energy inefficient at handling transactions. VISA handles thousands for what a proof-of-stake chain takes to handle a handful, and they do it faster to boot.

Electric cars don't contribute much CO2, so I don't recall much of that either. They do however have high particulate pollution amounts due to weighing considerably more (especially American-centric models like Teslas and the EV Hummer/F-150 Lightning) which aren't nothing to consider, and more to the point, electric cars do not solve the ancillary issues with infrastructure, like traffic congestion and cars effectively being a tax on everyone in a car-centric society who wants to be able to live. The fact that we all have to spend thousands every year on metal boxes we don't much care about just to be able to get around and have that box sit idle the vast majority of the time is ludicrously inefficient.

> But curiously, the same people rarely question the CO₂ footprint of things like gaming, streaming, international sports, live concerts, political campaigns, or even large-scale scientific research.

I have to vehemently disagree here. All scientific research, for starters, has to take environmental impact into account. Among other things that's why nobody in Vegas is watching nuclear tests anymore.

For another, people have long criticized numerous pop celebrities for being incredibly cavalier with the logistics for their concerts, and political figures have received similar criticism.

International sports meanwhile have gotten TONS of bad press for how awful it is that we have to move the stupid olympics around each year, both in the environmental sense, and the financial one since hosting practically renders a non-western country destitute overnight. Not even going into Qatar's controversial labor practices in building theirs.

> If we're serious about CO₂, then we need consistent standards — not just selective outrage. Either we cut fairly across the board, or we focus on making electricity cleaner and more sustainable, instead of trying to shame specific technologies into nonexistence (which, by the way, never happens).

No we don't. We can say, collectively, that the cost of powering gaming PC's, while notable, is something we're okay with, and conversely, powering plagiarism machines is not. Or, as people are so fond of saying here, let the market decide. Charge for AI services what they actually cost to provide plus profit, and see if the market will bear it. A lot of the interest right now is based on the fact that most of it is completely free, or being bundled with existing software, which is not a stable long-term solution.

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point I'm driving at is why? Why program in English if you have to go through similar rigour. If you're not actually handing off the actual engineering, you're putting the solution and having it translate to your language of preference whilst telling everyone how much more productive you are for effectively offloading the trivial part of the process. I'm not arguing that you can't get code from well defined, peda…

Yes, I maintain the same engineering rigor: but that rigor now goes toward solving the actual problem instead of wrestling with syntax, debugging semicolons, or managing language specific quirks. My cognitive load shifts from "how do I implement this?" to "what exactly do I want to build?" That's not a trivial difference, it's transformative. You're calling implementation "trivial" while simultaneously arguing I shou…

It's not the same. Compilers compile to equivalent assembly, LLMs aren't in the same family of outcomes.

If you are arguing for some sort of euphoria of getting lines of code from your presumably rigorous requirements much faster, carry on. This goes both ways though, if you are claiming to be extremely rigorous in your process, I find it curious that you are wrestling with language syntax. Are you unfamiliar with the language you're developing with?

If you know the language and have gone as far as having defined the problem and solution in testable terms, the implementation should indeed be trivial. The choice of writing the code and gaining a deeper understanding of the implementation where you stand to gain from owning this part of the process come with the price of a higher time spent in the codebase, versus offloading it to the model which can be quicker, but it comes with the drawback that you will be less familiar with your own project.

The question ofhow do I implement this? Is an engineering question, not a please implement this solution I wrote in English.

You may feel like the implementation mechanics are divorced from the problem domain but I find that to hardly be the case, most projects I've worked on the implementation often informed the requirements and vice versa.

Abstractions are usually adopted when they are equivalent to the process they are abstracting. You may see capability, and indeed models are capable, but they aren't yet as reliable as the thing you allege them to be abstracting.

I think the new workflows feel faster, and may indeed be on several instances, but there is no free lunch.

Re: The force-feeding of AI features on an unwilling public

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I maintain the same engineering rigor: but that rigor now goes toward solving the actual problem instead of wrestling with syntax, debugging semicolons, or managing language specific quirks. My cognitive load shifts from "how do I implement this?" to "what exactly do I want to build?" That's not a trivial difference, it's transformative. You're calling implementation "trivial" while simultaneously arguing I shou…

It's not the same. Compilers compile to equivalent assembly, LLMs aren't in the same family of outcomes. If you are arguing for some sort of euphoria of getting lines of code from your presumably rigorous requirements much faster, carry on. This goes both ways though, if you are claiming to be extremely rigorous in your process, I find it curious that you are wrestling with language syntax. Are you unfamiliar with th…

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