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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#371

Post by eddythompson80 »

leptons wrote: post #340
eddythompson80 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot you can fault Apple for, but we're literally talking about a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition. People often argue "how much is Apple ahead of the competition" if at all, right? Guessing you're in the "not at all, it's all PR bullshit" camp, which is fine. This is the one undisputed example though where we can put a definitive number on it. So far Apple is 4 years ahead of the…

>a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition It isn't all that high performance compared to other laptops, but sure.. fanless and low power it has. I just would rather plug in a laptop to get my workload done in 1/2 of the time it would take on an M1 laptop. The Dell laptop we got runs at 55W (Intel Core i9-13900HX) and is faster than the M1 Ultra 20-core at 60 Watts, which you can't even get in a l…

If you look next to you, you might find Dunning and Kruger

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#372

Post by Dylan16807 »

leptons wrote: post #352
criddell wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We understand that if you are willing to compromise on the fan and power efficiency, you can get a great machine like your Dell. People with your preferences are well served! The frustration is that there's nothing similar to even an old M1 laptop from other manufacturers. Why not? Apple has shown there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with good displays in the $2500+ range. Other people in this th…

In Apple's quest for thinness and quiet they have made lots of undercooled devices that overheat and thermal-throttle and just plain die. That Dell replaced a MBP which replaced another MBP that had to have the motherboard replace 8 times before Apple forced us to sue them in a class action (and we won). If only they had just cooled the thing properly. >there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with g…

> In Apple's quest for thinness and quiet they have made lots of undercooled devices that overheat and thermal-throttle and just plain die.

That's a good description of their last few Intel models. M1 does okay, even when it's fanless.

> Yeah, it's called "apple fanboys", people with more money than sense who fetishize slimness and quiet over computing.

Computers get more powerful every year. Not everyone needs to get sustained 100% out of their CPU.

So don't be an asshole about wanting other features.

And the whole point of the request is they're not an apple fanboy.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#373

Post by Dylan16807 »

dale_huevo wrote: post #160
nucleardog wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here. Framework sells keyboards for the Framework 13 for ~$30. I can find a Surface Go on sale for as low as $500. No, I don't think anyone's going to throw out a $500-$1000 device because it needs a $30 part and maybe 15 minutes of work (steps here: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Framework+Laptop+12+Input+Cover... ) and they could instead replace their…

> It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here. So I'm not allowed to disagree? For the record: I think the Framework laptop, while a noble cause, is a foolish endeavor as executed and they will be out of business in 5 years. I'm assuming you've stocked spare parts because by the time you need a new keyboard, there is a chance they will be out of production (or out of business) and those pa…

You're allowed to disagree with many aspects of repairability.

When you suggest that a surface go on sale is "a bit more" than a replacement keyboard, you're just wrong. That's not an opinion.

Also with the framework 16 replacing the keyboard actually is a minute. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Framework+Laptop+16-Inch+Keyboa...

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#374

Post by rafaelmn »

hippari2 wrote: post #283
rafaelmn wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repairability sounds good in theory but in practice outside of two year warranty period I'm fine if I have to replace the device because of failure, but I got 4-5 out of most of my devices. Like my 2018 Intel MBP was the worst laptop in terms of thermals/battery etc. It's still going with a family member I handed it over to. I don't think I've had a laptop die on me in last 12 years of using laptops, I usually keep t…

Not sure how your family is using it. But I find that a laptop using as a desktop has a much longer lifespan than a laptop using as intended ( a traveling work station ). Things like moisture, accidental drops, keyboard issue is much more common.

That's true I use laptop in that mode maybe 20% of the time and 80% it's plugged in.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#375

Post by mmcnl »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #337
mmcnl wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're linking to a multi-core benchmark. The story is a lot more in favor of Apple if you look at single-core efficiency, Apple is roughly 2-3x more efficient: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Lunar-Lake-CPU-analysis-... And this benchmark doesn't even include M4, which is even more efficient.

> The story is a lot more in favor of Apple if you look at single-core efficiency Your link is comparing the M3 against AMD chips with higher TDPs. Higher TDPs tank "single-core efficiency" because power consumption is non-linear with clock speed. Give a core near its limit three times the power budget and you're basically dividing the single-core efficiency by three because you burn three times more power and barely…

Ofcourse, but that's the whole point right? At similar power levels, Apple M-series is a lot faster. The only way for AMD and Intel to compete on performance is by providing more power, but this obviously has a negative effect on efficiency. So with AMD/Intel you have to choose: efficient and slow or inefficient and fast. With Apple you can actually have it both ways.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#376

Post by mmcnl »

0xTJ wrote: post #346
mmcnl wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consumer laptops are not built for easy repairability. EliteBooks are very servicable, only 4 or 5 captive screws and you can easily access all the internals.

Having specific lines be easily repairable doesn't influence how Framework laptops interact with the rest of the market. It's very much not just businesses (or individuals buying business-line devices) that should be able to repair their laptops, and they're not advertising themselves exclusively to businesses. Also, my biggest issue with my HP Envy x360 is not getting inside. It's annoying to have to buy new (third-…

No indeed it doesn't change anything about Framework the company. But I still fail to see why I would buy a Framework over a HP EliteBook, Lenovo ThinkPad or Dell Pro laptop. The only reason I can imagine is upgradability: you can upgrade the CPU by buying a new mainboard. But that doesn't really appeal to me. The mainboards are very expensive and it only leads to more e-waste. From a sustainability perspective it's better to have 2 fully functioning laptops in use compared to 1.5 laptops with expensive parts collecting dust in a cabinet.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#377

Post by SergeAx »

linsomniac wrote: post #190
atrus wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.

>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…

I bought my desktop PC about 20 years ago, and since then, I've never upgraded more than two components at once. It is literally Theseus' ship. But I put some effort into keeping it future proof, like buying memory compatible with the next generation motherboard, better modular PSU with power for future video card etc. It is actually quite fun game, especially when your vendor return policy is generous enough to not worry if something won't fit or won't work together.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#378

Post by moltopoco »

f1shy wrote: post #289
VHRanger wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought an asus OLED zenbook 14 with the ryzen chip, slapped pop OS onto it and it ran with no issues since. In a lot of ways it's better than the M2 max macbook pro I had before (better screen for one). It was also, uh, 1/6th the price.

I‘m looking zenbook 14 prices, pretty much same as Mac Air. Also my problem is that ASUS does not offer ANSI Keyboard here.

Hah, my problem with ASUS is that they don't offer proper ISO keyboards in Europe. (Their left Shift key is short, but the Return key is wide.) I really don't know what they are doing with their keyboard layouts.

And that's actually the reason why I'm lurking in this thread; I want a 2-in-1 and didn't get the X13 Flow due to its keyboard.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#379

Post by moltopoco »

pdpi wrote: post #240
linsomniac wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…

I bought the DIY FW13 a while back, and it took me 40 minutes from receiving the box to having it fully assembled, Fedora installed and a Youtube video playing. I bought the hi-res display a month or two ago, and the whole replacement took ~20 minutes. In between those two experiences, the whole upgradeability thing feels very very real for me. If anything, it's easier to work on than my desktop PC.

For the same money, one can also get a laptop that has a nice display right from day one. The FW12 looks interesting, but if I'm hoping to buy an upgraded screen down the road, and a better CPU, a backlit keyboard, a better camera, and maybe better speakers... then I am not taking advantage of upgradeability, I'm bending over backwards just to avoid buying a Lenovo Yoga or so.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#380

Post by e12e »

MangoToupe wrote: post #217
e12e wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No external display support under Linux.

Works fine for me. How else do you think the studios/minis run it?

Huh, when did this happen? I thought external display was still not supported on MacBook air m1s?

Ed: according to

https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/m1/#soc...

MacBook air still have no external display support?

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