Live data from Hacker News

I'd rather read the prompt

claytonwramsey.com

371–380 of 880 posts

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#371

Time to go back to writing essays in exams, live, on paper.

Or how about we actually collectively learn a lesson from this - if your assignments just ask people to generically regurgitate info, don’t be surprised that 90% of students lose interest and see it for what it is, pointless busywork.

I genuinely believe I had many excellent learning experiences at university, and I can assure you none of them were the times I had to re-write course info and hand it back to them in order to check off a box.

Maybe, if one student does something they might be wrong, but if 90% of students do something, perhaps the assignment is wrong? Doubling down and saying “we’ll force them to do it by hand then!” Is rather blindly missing the point here no?

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#372
post #221

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter. It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia. They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that…

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

> The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

I remember illustrating a point to a class by posing a question and then calling on a student I figured wasn't smart enough to answer correctly so that everyone could see her make the mistake.

The ethics of that still bother me.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#373
None of the people writing these sorts of posts seem willing to acknowledge how prevalent not doing your own work was before AI wad around.

The hardest hit industry by AI has been essay writing services.

If anything, it seems they're noticing because the AI is doing a worse job.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's challenging. Assignments (and particularly programming assignments) were by far the larger and more difficult part of my CS degree, and also the place where I learned the most. I cannot imagine losing that portion of my education and just replacing it with a few exams.

That's how it works in Germany. Usually assignments are either optional or you just have to get 50% of the total assignment marks over the semester to be admitted to the exam (written or often oral, in person). Then your grade is entirely based on the exam. Hand-holding throughout the semester assignment-to-assignment, checking attendance etc. is more an Anglo-specific thing where students are treated as kids instead…

As someone who did CS 15 years ago, assignments show you can actually understand and build programs. Exams show you bothered to re-read the lecture notes the day before and can regurgitate information on command that you could just as easily forget the next day. Not to mention they’re hugely stressful and some students can’t cope with them well even if they’d make excellent programmers.

I can’t imagine disincentivising actually getting stuck into programming and incentivising being good at regurgitating info in an exam room being a good thing for CS students.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#375
post #156

Time to go back to writing essays in exams, live, on paper.

Honestly I think we'll get back there. I remember ... fondly(?) exams from my history courses in undergrad in the mid 90s. 3-4 questions, 3 hours, anything less than what would amount to a pretty decent length and moderately thorough term paper would fail and have to be made up with an absolutely BRUTAL multiple choice + fill in the blank exam at the end of the term. Those classes are what taught me how to study and…

You might be the only person in history who remembers fondly being stressfully forced to write essays in exams.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#376
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

The point of education isn't to actually learn though. It's to receive the credential. This is much larger than a cultural problem with the students of today. They believe, rightfully and accurately, that the university degree is yet another part of the machine that they will become a cog in. What should be alarming to everyone is that these students will graduate without having learned anything and then go into the…

Well, the credentials defintely help to GET the first job. As a cog in the machine though you are most often valued for skills more than for credentials, at least in the U.S.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#377
I teach a university class in which I ask the students to submit writing each week, and I have also seen obviously LLM-produced writing. Yes, it’s boring and doesn’t show the students’ thinking, and the students are not getting any wiser by doing assignments that way. Just last week, I told my students that, while they can use LLMs any way they like for the class, their writing will be more interesting if they write it themselves and use LLMs only sparingly, such as for fixing grammatical mistakes (most of the students are not native speakers of English). It helps, I think, that in this class the students’ writing is shared among the students, and during class I often refer to interesting comments from student writing. The students themselves, I hope, will come to understand the value of reading human-written writing.

That said, I myself am increasingly reading long texts written by LLMs and learning from them. I have been comparing the output of the Deep Research products from various companies, often prompting for topics that I want to understand more deeply for projects I am working on. I have found those reports very helpful for deepening my knowledge and understanding and for enabling me to make better decisions about how to move forward with my projects.

I tested Gemini and ChatGPT on “utilizing Euler angles for rotation representation,” the example topic used by the author in the linked article. I first ran the following metaprompt through Claude:

  Please prepare a prompt that I can give to a reasoning LLM that has web search and “deep research” capability. The prompt should be to ask for a report of the type mentioned by the sample “student paper” given at the beginning of the following blog post: https://claytonwramsey.com/blog/prompt/ Your prompt should ask for a tightly written and incisive report with complete and accurate references. When preparing the prompt, also refer to the following discussion about the above blog post on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43888803
I put the the full prompt written by Claude at the end of the Gemini report, which has some LaTex display issues that I couldn’t get it to fix:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sqpeLY4TWD8L4jDSloeH45AI...

Here is the ChatGPT report:

https://chatgpt.com/share/681816ff-2048-8011-8e0f-d8cbad2520...

I know nothing about this topic, so I cannot evaluate the accuracy or appropriateness of the above reports. But when I have had these two Deep Research models produce similar reports on topics I understand better, they have indeed deepened my understanding and, I hope, made me a bit wiser.

The challenge for higher education is trying to decide when to stick to the traditional methods of teaching—in this case, having the students learn through the process of writing on their own—and when to use these powerful new AI tools to promote learning in other ways.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#378

> A typical belief among students is that classes are a series of hurdles to be overcome; at the end of this obstacle course, they shall receive a degree as testament to their completion of these assignments. I agree with the broader point of the article in principle. We should be writing to edify ourselves and take education seriously because of how deep interaction with the subject matter will transform us. But in…

I think the author is conflating assignments with learning. The assignments are, by definition, hurdles to be overcome, and they will always be treated as such. Learning can happen in other better ways, and perhaps if your assignment design is to get students to generically regurgitate course material you shouldn’t be surprised when that’s exactly what they do.

I can’t be the only student who had both the experience of wonderful learning moments, AND could see a badly designed assignment a mile off and wasn’t motivated to give such a thing my full attention no?

As a side note, if you want the prompt, simply ask for it in the assignment. Asking students for one thing and then complaining when you don’t get another is insanity.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#379
post #184

As someone who is an immigrant that had to go to high school in English speaking country and who struggled a lot and couldn’t do anything about improving essay writing no matter what I did, I say all these English teachers deserve this. I wish ChatGPT existed during my school years, I would’ve at least had someone(thing) explain me how to write better.

> I would’ve at least had someone(thing) explain me how to write better. I actually don't think that it is good at that. I have heard of language teachers trying to use it to teach the language (it's a model language, it should be good at it, right?) and realised that it isn't good at that. Of course I understand the point of your message, which is that you feel your teachers were not helpful and I have empathy for t…

It is excellent at that, have you tried using it as a learning tool to improve your writing before? It’s exactly what it’s good at…

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just went on apple.com and tried for 8 minutes to find "long beautiful flowing content". Most of the actual text I came across there were not-so-beautiful legal disclaimers... Can you share a link to what you mean?

I meant the whole site. I was using the word "content" broadly. That website is far from concise. 50 pictures of everything.

I would argue that pictures are concise, at what they’re aiming to do.
Post reply on HN