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OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

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Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if most people these days kinda aren't at least that age, you know? Or less inhibited about acting it than I believe I recall people being last decade. Even compared to just a few years back, people seem more often to struggle to carry a thought, and resort much more quickly to emotional belligerence. Oh, not that I haven't been as knocked about in the interim, of course. I'm not really c…

> Even compared to just a few years back, people seem more often to struggle to carry a thought, and resort much more quickly to emotional belligerence. We're living in extremely uncertain times, with multiple global crises taking place at the same time, each of which could develop into a turning point for humankind. At the same time, predatory algorithms do whatever it takes to make people addicted to media, while m…

I feel perhaps I've been unkind to many people in my thoughts, but I'm conflicted. I don't understand myself to be particularly fearless, but what times call more for courage than times like these? How do people afraid even to try to practice courage expect to find it, when there isn't time for practice any more?

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#372

`ETOOMANYMODELS` Is there a reputable, non-blogspam site that offers a 'cheat sheet' of sorts for what models to use, in particular for development? Not just openAI, but across the main cloud offerings and feasible local models? I know there are the benchmarks, and directories like huggingface, and you can get a 'feel' for things by scanning threads here or other forums. I'm thinking more of something that provides u…

> Is there a reputable, non-blogspam site that offers a 'cheat sheet' of sorts for what models to use, in particular for development?

Below is a spreadsheet I bookmarked from a previous HN discussion. Its information dense but you can just look at the composite scores to get a quick idea how things compare.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1foc98Jtbi0-GUsNy...

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#374
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't solve this puzzle: https://i.imgur.com/AJqbqHJ.png Thought for 3m 51s Short answer → you can’t. The breathtaking thing is not the model itself, but that someone as smart as Cowen (and he's not the only one) is uttering "AGI" in the same sentence as any of these models. Now, I'm not a hater, and for many tasks they are amazing, but they are, as of now, not even close to AGI, by any reasonable definition.

I work for openai. o4-mini gets much closer (but I'm pretty sure it fumbles at the last moment): https://chatgpt.com/share/680031fb-2bd0-8013-87ac-941fa91cea... We're pretty bad at model naming and communicating capabilities (in our defense, it's hard!), but o4-mini is actually a _considerably_ better vision model than o3, despite the benchmarks. Similar to how o3-mini-high was a much better coding model than o1. I w…

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure the vision is the failing point here, but logic. I routinely try to get these models to solve difficult puzzles or coding challenges (the kind that a good undergrad math major could probably solve, but that most would struggle with). They fail almost always. Even with help.

For example, JaneStreet monthly puzzles. Surprisingly, the new o3 was able to solve this months (previous models were not), which was an easier one. Believe me, I am not trying to minimize the overall achievement -- what it can do incredible -- but I don't believe the phrase AGI should even be mentioned until we are seeing solutions to problems that most professional mathematicians would struggle with, including solutions to unsolved problems.

That might not be enough even, but that should be the minimum bar for even having the conversation.

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#375
Here are some notes I made to understand each of these models and when to use them.

# OpenAI Models

## Reasoning Models (o-series) - All `oX` (o-series aka `omni`) models are reasoning models. - Use these for complex, multi-step, reasoning tasks.

## Flagship/Core Models - All `x.x` and `Xo` models are the core models. - Use these for one-shot results - Examples: 4o, 4.1

## Cost Optimized - All `-mini`, `-nano` are cheaper, faster models. - Use these for high-volume, low effort tasks.

## Flagship vs Reasoning (o-series) Models - Latest flagship model = 4.1 - Latest reasoning model = o3 - The flagship models are general purpose, typically with larger context windows. These rely mostly on pattern matching. - The reasoning models are trained with extended chain-of-thought and reinforcement learning models. They work best with tools, code and other multi-step workflows. Because tools are used, the accuracy will be higher.

# List of Models

## 4o (omni) - 128K context window - complex multimodal, applications requiring the top level of reliability and nuance

## 4o-mini - 128K context window - Use: multimodal reasoning for math, coding, and structured outputs - Use: Cheaper than `4o`. Use when you can trade off accuracy vs speed/cost. - Dont Use: When high accuracy is needed

## 4.1 - 1M context window - Use: For large context ingest, such as full codebases - Use: For reliable instruction following, comprehension - Dont Use: For high volume/faster tasks

## 4.1-mini - 1M context window - Use: For large context ingest - Use: When a tradeoff can be made with accuracy vs speed

## 4.1-nano - 1M context window - Use: For high-volume, near-instant responses - Dont Use: When accuracy is required - Examples: classification, autocompletion, short-answers

## o3 - 200K context window - Use: for the most challenging reasoning tasks in coding, STEM, and vision that demand deep chain‑of‑thought and tool use - Use: Agentic workflows leveraging web search, Python execution, and image analysis in one coherent loop - Dont Use: For simple tasks, where lighter model will be faster and cheaper.

## o4-mini - 200K context window - Use: High-volume needs where reasoning and cost should be balanced - Use: For high throughput applications - Dont Use: When accuracy is critical

## o4-mini-high - 200K context window - Use: When o4-mini results are not satisfactory, but before moving to o3. - Use: Compex tool-driven reasoning, where o4-mini results are not satisfactory - Dont Use: When accuracy is critical

## o1-pro-mode - 200K context window - Use: Highly specialized science, coding, or reasoning jobs that benefit from extra compute for consistency - Dont Use: For simple tasks

## Models Sorted for Complex Coding Tasks (my opinion)

1. o3 2. Gemini 2.5 Pro 3. Claude 3.7 2. o1-pro-mode 3. o4-mini-high 4. 4.1 5. o4-mini

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still doesn't work well in Cursor unfortunately.

Working fine here. What problems do you see?

Not the OP but believe they could be referring to the fact it’s not supported in edit mode yet, only agent mode.

So far for me that’s not been too much of a roadblock. Though I still find overall Gemini struggles with more obscure issues such as SQL errors in dbt

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#377
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenAI isn't selling GPT-4 or o1 or o4-mini or turbo or whatever else to the general public. These announcements may as well be them releasing GPT v12.582.599385. No one outside of a small group of nerds cares. The end consumer is going to chatgpt.com and typing things in the box.

$20 Plus subscription give access to o1 and Deep Research (10 uses/month). I'm pretty sure general public can get access through API as well.

Right and most people are not going to spend 200$+ /mo on ChatGPT.. Maybe businesses will but at this point they have too many choices.

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#378
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was incredibly irritating at first, though over time I've learned to appreciate this "extra credit" work. It can be fun to see what Claude thinks I can do better, or should add in addition to whatever feature I just asked for. Especially when it comes to UI work, Claude actually has some pretty cool ideas. If I'm using Claude through Copilot where it's "free" I'll let it do its thing and just roll back to the la…

> If I'm using Claude through Copilot where it's "free" Too bad Microsoft is widely limiting this -- have you seen their pricing changes? I also feel like they nerfed their models, or reduced context window again.

Claude is almost comically good outside of copilot. When using through copilot it’s like working with a lobotomized idiot (that complains it generated public code about half the time).

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#379

I’m having very mixed feelings about it. I’m using o3 to help me parse and understand a book about statistics and ML, it’s very dense in math. On one hand the answers became a lot more comprehensive and deep. It’s now able to give me very advanced explanations. On the other hand, it started overloading the answers with information. Entire concepts became single sentence summaries. Complex topics and theorems became a…

Pretty wild that we’re at the point that the human is the limitation

Re: OpenAI o3 and o4-mini

#380
The most striking difference to me is that o3 and o4 know when the web search tool is unavailable, and will tell you they can't answer a question that requires it. While 4o and (sadly) 4.1 will just make up a bunch of nonsense.

I'm simultaneously impressed that they can do that, and also wondering why the heck that's so impressive (isn't "is this tool in this list?" something GPT-3 was able to handle?) and why 4.1 still fails at it too—especially considering it's hyped as the agentic coder model!

That's pretty damning for the general intelligence aspect of it, that they apparently had to special-case something so trivial... and I say that as someone who's really optimistic about this stuff!

That being said, the new "enhanced" web search seems great so far, and means I can finally delete another stupid 10 line Python script from 2023 that I shouldn't have needed in the first place ;)

(...Now if they'd just put 4.1 in the Chat... why the hell do I need to use a 3rd party UI for their best model!)

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