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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#371

Post by azemetre »

dismalaf wrote: post #329
malfist wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Because somebody has it worse means billionaires can exploit us without recourse? Because that's the alternative. Either we advocate or they take more and more

It's fine to demand more. I'm a believer in market power. But have some perspective, there's a ton of far worse jobs...

The problem with saying "market power" is that it implicitly condones that those with money are correct since they have influence over the market.

Workers can't influence markets like the billionaire class, that's why they need to be heavily regulated with social protections enshrined in law.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#372

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #337
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to tech workers, not by benevolent capitalists, but by greedy capitalists. Up until say 2022 or so, the vast majority of people who worked in tech companies in the US were compensated extremely well (relatively) without unions, the reason being that (a) modern tech, especially software, can be such a "force multiplier" where a small team of programmers can serve millions of customers and (b) there reall…

We were talking about where worker rights came from in general. And the answer to that is unions.

Only when this thread got sidetracked. The article and comment that started this thread are about tech industry unions. I can fully appreciate the role unions played by improving working conditions in the past and still come to the conclusion that I wouldn't want them for (most) tech industry workers now.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#373

Post by Apocryphon »

rockemsockem wrote: post #325
Apocryphon wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, that's what we do with CoderPad, Leetcode, Karat, etc. Yes, of course you should still interview them afterwards, I'm sure that's what credentialed professions do as well. My point is just to have the Leetcode portion be done once rather than for every company's interview.

No, but that's what I'm saying though. I don't trust someone else, especially some credentialing body to administer leetcode style questions. I'm still going to want to have a candidate prove they can actually write code.

Maybe you can ask them domain-specific questions more relevant to the actual position you’re hiring them for? System design? Pair programming session? Debug a code sample? Present a solution for a home coding assignment?

Anyway, many companies are outsourcing phone screens now to services such as Karat, where Kiwi contractor engineers provide 24/7 interview availability. Yet those interviews cannot be transferred from company to prospective Karat-using company. So you get the worst of all worlds.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#374

Post by rapjr9 »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

If your boss is constantly pressuring you to take on more work, then burnout is not a career choice. Ever have a coworker leave and get all their work dumped on you? Do your deadlines no longer allow time to relax and explore new ideas inbetween them? Managers all read the same magazines/blogs on how to get more out of their employees and it always seems to come down to beating the employees until they die, same as in the slave days. If you're not being pushed to do more, consider yourself lucky and stay there!

Re: The Burnout Machine

#375

Post by [deleted] »

rglover wrote: post #351
Apocryphon wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of this comment I saw recently > Are you advocating for everyone to create their own SaaS here or what? End of the day, most engineers need to join employers. We can’t have 10M+ different SaaS out there and each engineer develops their own personal brand of it. That’s not how software scales. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43379353

Create your own SaaS or consult/freelance. Or if it's too stressful or not lucrative enough, start another type of small business. The "big business with lots of employees" thing is a relatively new phenomenon. Most people used to be solo operators or part of a family business. And if you prefer, employers who need engineers aren't going away. They're being temporarily deluded into thinking that they can get rid of t…

[deleted]

Re: The Burnout Machine

#376

Post by CaffeineLD50 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #305
CaffeineLD50 wrote: post #214

Apparently the #1 issue that could motivate unionizing is WFH. I suggest a one issue union: the WFH union. I think it would be a massive success.

And even if you want to work onsite- ever notice that the near-universal distaste for open offices? Yet that's a trend in tech that refuses to die? There's an anti-open office layout story on HN every month, or used to be. For all of the power that software engineers think they have as an occupation, why can't they overcome being stuck in a bullpen, sometimes even in a floating desk setup? Maybe all of the cushy perk…

WFH is a super powerful incentive that collective bargaining could well, bargain for.

I say unionize for WFH. Watch it work

Re: The Burnout Machine

#377

Post by paulddraper »

> The tech industry loves to hype itself as a meritocracy, where the best and the brightest rise to the top. But in reality, it’s a meat market. As soon as you’re not "on the cutting edge," you’re out.

I’m not really understanding the distinction.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#378

Post by awongh »

echelon wrote: post #146
jakelazaroff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s take the NYT Tech Guild. They negotiated a new contract following a strike last November. Here are some of the things they won: > Enhanced job security with ‘just cause’ protections > Guaranteed wage increases for the first time of up to 8.25% (plus additional base rate discretionary compensation) that prioritize the largest wage increases for the lowest paid members over the life of the contract > Additional c…

I made $450k TC in my last job. In Atlanta. I don't think we need unions to be treated well. Unions will kickstart the offshoring of our career. Just like every other place unions exist without a talent monopoly (manufacturing, automotive, and most recently film crews). Google is going to hire in developing markets and stop hiring domestically. Everyone else will follow. The talent in India is incredible these days.…

There are simple location-based reasons why jobs wouldn't be offshored- longshoremen, electricians and plumbers, flight attendants (for USA based airlines), and also the NYT tech staff are unlikely to be offshored.

I'm still not sure that unions don't make sense for tech- it seems like the idea that tech workers need protection from their employers is gaining ground.

I also think there are still a lot of reasons why unions don't make sense.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#379

Post by throwaway657656 »

whoknowsidont wrote: post #360
goostavos wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a FANG. Senior SDE. I don't have slack on my phone. I don't read emails (unless someone tells me out of band that one needs a response). Once I close this laptop work is dead to me until the following day. You pick and choose your own involvement. I'm "passionate" about the job. I consider it a craft and a lifelong pursuit. I'm writing a book on the topic. But the job is just a job. I'm here because they gi…

[flagged]

He seems to have solved a mindset issue that eludes others like myself.

I reduced to 24hr billable hours a week thinking that it would help with burnout. Instead my ego is constantly deflated given that I am now the least productive developer on the team given all others work 40hrs+ and my meeting/coding ratio has become unbearable. The resulting competition anxiety ensures I think about the project all the time. The resulting lack of energy has affected my other projects/interests.

This is 100% in my head as my supervisor is happy with my output. But I can't escape it. I often lie down, stare at the ceiling for answers, only to find myself in a worse state.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#380

Post by xwolfi »

samatman wrote: post #258
simonask wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In normal countries, the role of unions is to ensure that your rights and livelihood are secured when your body or mind sustains damage from a work injury. It sounds like your idea about what unions are and do are deeply informed by abnormal circumstances.

Perhaps that's why I've met so many engineers from these normal countries in my own, abnormally wealthy one. In fact, they've told me so, in so many words.

Good one, moved from France to Hong Kong, can confirm. We all move to non-unionized countries to finally be free to make money. When we go back, ofc we're all like "oh yeah you're so right, protect your right to work 35 hours, the boss is evil anyway" :D
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