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Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

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Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#371

The constant struggle is the lagging support for the best hardware. Unless you want to buy a machine from a dedicated Linux shop (framework, System76, tuxedo), you are taking a risk buying anything remotely new without a lot of research into the hardware and hunting for posts about people who have had success. Those dedicated Linux shops are usually at least a generation behind too. It doesn't help that architectures…

You can but Lenovo and Dell laptops with support.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#372
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is untrue. You can run old Linux binaries on modern Linux systems if you have the older libraries. You want to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to point to where the old libraries are located. By the way, any Android applications using Google’s old messaging APIs no longer work and need to be rewritten to use fire base. I know people who were bitten by that multiple times since Google had to keep reinventing push notificatio…

> This is untrue. You can run old Linux binaries on modern Linux systems if you have the older libraries. Again, 0.01% of people in the world could do it, 0.0001% would do it. That's all you need to know about Linux compatibility. And don't get me started on LD_LIBRARY_PATH not working for glibc but you conveniently "forgot" about that. Compatibility "exists" except when it doesn't and it's extremely hard to achieve…

Use the other system’s elf interpreter (which is conveniently a library). Then it should work. Saying an ability to run older binaries does not exist is just wrong.

By the way, when someone makes an assertion that something is always true, it only takes 1 counter example to disprove it. The assertion that you cannot run old Linux binaries on a newer system has been disproven by a counter example.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#373
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verifying arbitrary code is safe is not possible for AV to do. If you know some way to do what you describe, you can commercialize it and become rich. Many would pay top dollar for such technology.

Virtualization and sandbox environment code execution have been available for years now in multiple Windows AVs. And it works great. Linux on the other hand has absolutely nothing and it's still "OK". "Windows is not perfect and thus Linux is OK". I've heard that way too many times. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

That is a waste of resources that cannot prove the safety of arbitrary code. If you want safe code, use code only from trusted sources.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#374
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many libraries use the GPL because “that only works for open source applications”. That said, you can just copy the .so files if you want to run the old binary. Furthermore, binaries are mmapped, so even if it is very large, it will still launch relatively quickly since only the parts needed to launch are read into memory.

LD_LIBRARY_PATH again? Can you stop for a second and realize your "solutions" are absolute unmitigated crap and 99.999% of people of the world wouldn't bother even if they could? In Windows you don't have to do that. You can compile an application in Windows 11 and run it in Windows XP for Christ's sake (if you don't use new Windows APIs). Show me a way to compile anything in Ubuntu 24 using only its own libraries an…

First, LD_LIBRARY_PATH works well (or has for me). If for some reason the elf interpreter is unable to use the older libc, just use the old elf interpreter. Second, do static linking to achieve what you want. Then it will run on the older Ubuntu trivially.

That of course requires updating the application when a vulnerability is found in a library, but this is no different from Windows where you have to update many applications to fix vulnerabilities in third party libraries. The number of vendor updates to fix the same libjpeg of libpng issues on Windows is truly staggering.

The Qt libraries do not use the GPL. They use the same LGPL that GTK does. You are making stuff up to bash open source UNIX machines (which is what Linux machines are).

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#375
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have commits in half the projects you mentioned and I think the article is FUD. There are technically wrong points in it, such as the claim that you cannot run old Linux binaries on modern Linux. People are able to run old binaries on Linux that are 30 years old, although it requires copies of the old libraries those binaries need. If the guy actually is involved with so many projects, he would know this. The guy e…

You've not read the article at all and it explains full well what constitutes an OS. The Linux kernel is NOT an OS. Any given Linux distro which is not compatible with any other Linux distro or even its own earlier or later versions couldn't be called an OS. It's a software compilation for a certain time period. An OS implies everyone runs it, anyone can compile software for it and have it run on all devices with thi…

I read the article. It did correctly say that Linux is not an OS and that the distribution is the OS. Then it said Linux is an OS. The article author and you are the ones spreading FUD here. Much of what the two of you say is factually incorrect.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#376

This was funny considering Linux runs on almost anything is everywhere: > 6. Hardware support and compatibility

In my experience, you are still much more likely to get broken hardware support when updating kernels on Linux, though I have no idea why. I almost never see or experienced stuff like my laptop camera not working at all after an update on Windows, but it does happen on Linux. The same goes for GPUs, which can break if you update your kernel often. It's not necessarily the kernel's fault but it's something that does h…

> I almost never see or experienced stuff like my laptop camera not working at all after an update on Windows, but it does happen on Linux.

> But for regular, personal usage, I genuinely think that Linux does break more often.

How do you feel about windows forcing ads and monitoring what you do?

How do you feel when windows updates ignore your privacy choices to push the boundary even more?

Do you even have a choice now to stop ads and telemetry entirely as a consumer?

Is that a breakage? (nobody wants ads/monitoring yet here is microsoft forcing it on you via updates)

I would argue that is worse then whatever technical issues might appear upgrading linux and you cant fix that.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#377
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume Windows is a decent OS. Many who know better would not.

I have no assumptions. Windows is installed on 2 billion PCs, give or take. It works great on them, too. Long gone are the days of malware waves or driver failures that break the system. Linux is on 40 millions. And the amount of pain I see daily on Linux-related forums trumps Windows' woes by an insane margin.

I would not call limping along from extreme levels of telemetry, AV and other bloat “works great”. Discussing “driver failures that break the system” is a strawman since bad drivers never really broke the system. They just crashed it such that it needed a reboot. That said, Microsoft lets garbage that has no business being in the kernel into the NT kernel, which resulted in this fiasco that actually broke Windows systems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_CrowdStrike-related_IT_ou...

Windows systems often suffer from cryptolockers, which could be considered malware waves.

You have a stratification bias by looking at forums where people are asking for help. I have installed Linux for a number of non-computer people to solve Windows problems and it has served them well. They all like it better than Windows. The average person really is fine with a Ubuntu install. The only reason Windows has such usage is that it is installed by default due to history. If a Linux distribution were installed by default, there would not be many Windows users.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Outside of the Linux kernel, there is very little shared technology between Android and the Linux desktops. lol... so, all of it? Linux is a kernel. Regardless, my point had absolutely nothing to do with technology. Android's popularity has absolutely nothing to do with Linux and/or what it shipped with or didn't ship with. Its popularity has everything to do with the fact that it shipped preinstalled on devices th…

A lot of netbooks back in the day did ship with a Linux distro pre-installed, and you know what people did? Replaced them with Windows. Because the Linux desktop is and continues to be a sup-bar experience for the average joe. GNOME requires a modification to even run Discord properly, but anyone who points this out gets shouted at.

I was those people. I bought the original eee 701 at launch. I ordered it online because local stores didn't stock them. Xandros sucked not because it ran linux, but just because it was some little-tikes toy OS. But Windows didn't even run correctly on the damn thing either, because the 480px vertical height of the screen wasn't tall enough to fit the minimum height of many windows. The device was basically a toy for nerds, no normal person would have picked up one of these devices and thought "this is a computer I can use for real things"

People don't not use Linux because they've considered it and found out that their applications won't run on it. They don't use it because they've not considered it at all, because 99%+ of people do not choose the OS on their computer. They go to the electronics store and buy a Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo, or Apple. There's no Asus Eee running Xandros at my local Best Buy, and if there ever was, it wasn't on the shelf for very long.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but running on refrigerators, trains, or web servers doesn't make it a better or more successful consumer desktop kernel.

Sure, but it being ubiquitous should give developers a hint where future lies. Consumers will eventually follow. (see android).

> Sure, but it being ubiquitous should give developers a hint where future lies.

Embedded systems?! :D

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#380
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verifying arbitrary code is safe is not possible for AV to do. If you know some way to do what you describe, you can commercialize it and become rich. Many would pay top dollar for such technology.

Virtualization and sandbox environment code execution have been available for years now in multiple Windows AVs. And it works great. Linux on the other hand has absolutely nothing and it's still "OK". "Windows is not perfect and thus Linux is OK". I've heard that way too many times. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

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