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UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

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Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#371
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who determines what is misinformation? Who determines laws? > And after we have established this, who determines whether it was deliberate? Democracies have institutions with the tools and power to investigate. It's like a regulator is a new concept.

You want to give the power to the people that make the laws to also decree what is true or not? This is going to turn out well. I don’t think that having institutions that can legislate the truth is compatible with free and just societies. Political power and democratic majorities do not decide the truth. if you think otherwise I don’t believe there is common ground to be found.

So why is the alternative, which is having multi-billionaires having all that power to decree what is true/acceptable better?

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then that's an irreconcilable difference between us. I happen to think that factual details matter and are very important. Moral narratives, not so much. 1) The point I was making is that there shouldn't be any prosecutions of this kind, so what act they are prosecuted under is irrelevant. 2) You then pretending I am arguing a moral narrative when it isn't. I am arguing on principle. That are not the same thing. BT…

You know why I read the original court documents? I realised I had been lied to before by some media sources (some of those people believe to be credible as well). And that's great. So right now I'll formally backpedal for you: "It seems you are underinformed or not checking your sources, in this particular context ." Otherwise, let's give it a rest please.

No it isn't good enough. I don't appreciate people trying to gaslight me by telling me that I have imagined everything. I said further up in this thread that I am quite fed up of people like yourself pretending the stuff we are talking about isn't happening when it quite clearly is, so you shouldn't be surprised when you get this push back.

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#373
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

besides big tech i assume it will push more people underground (this is what i would do). and VPNs will get (yet another) big boost. myopic governments pushed by myopic voters are apparently the new norm.

Understand that 99% of VPNs can be trivialy shut down if they wanted. The loophole is tolerated. For now.

yes, very much aware of this. you can even block them at carrier level, but it’s a little bit more expensive

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#374
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His solution was to remove administrative detections And replace them with what? There is no easy way to handle that scenario that doesn't create perverse incentives if you're managing police by statistics (and getting away from that is not something you simply do). If you treat them as permanently unsolved crimes, you'll turn them into pointless counterproductive arrests/charges. If you allow the police to just wr…

The other issues compounding this is that to make all this work, as the police grow they grow asymmetrically on the administrative side. So every dollar spent is slowly but surely less effective at performing basic police functions. >Managing police by statistics Thats the crux of the whole problem isnt it? The cops in the UK face the same issue as any tech business that cant scale. They are spending more effort meas…

> Thats the crux of the whole problem isnt it?

Right. So changing the details of the mechanism won't fix anything. And while I suspect the author would like to return to "let the police do what they like, and trust their judgement", that also has problems.

> Ok but the administrative detections skewed things away from serious crimes. Why detect 1 murder when you can detect 42 drug crimes across 3 people? And then the administrative overhead of recording the 42 drug crimes takes that guy off the beat for the rest of the day.

But it's not the administrative detection that's the issue there. If you make those arrests/charges you have exactly the same problem. The problem is deciding it's more important to solve 42/43 crimes than solve the murder, and that decision is happening outside of the police power structure.

(It's also not entirely clear that it's wrong - reasonable people from all around the political spectrum have argued that preventing small crimes ultimately has a high long-term impact, in the same way that doctors save more lives by telling patients to lose weight than by everything else they do put together)

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#375
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other issues compounding this is that to make all this work, as the police grow they grow asymmetrically on the administrative side. So every dollar spent is slowly but surely less effective at performing basic police functions. >Managing police by statistics Thats the crux of the whole problem isnt it? The cops in the UK face the same issue as any tech business that cant scale. They are spending more effort meas…

> Thats the crux of the whole problem isnt it? Right. So changing the details of the mechanism won't fix anything. And while I suspect the author would like to return to "let the police do what they like, and trust their judgement", that also has problems. > Ok but the administrative detections skewed things away from serious crimes. Why detect 1 murder when you can detect 42 drug crimes across 3 people? And then the…

> Right. So changing the details of the mechanism won't fix anything. And while I suspect the author would like to return to "let the police do what they like, and trust their judgement", that also has problems.

Yes but I feel this is largely resolved with his desire to remove police powers. If police, or at least the majority of, have no powers to abuse, then the potential for abuse is significantly lower.

>But it's not the administrative detection that's the issue there. If you make those arrests/charges you have exactly the same problem. The problem is deciding it's more important to solve 42/43 crimes than solve the murder, and that decision is happening outside of the police power structure.

You miss

>And then the administrative overhead of recording the 42 drug crimes takes that guy off the beat for the rest of the day.

The issue isnt with the goal, like you suggest people want these crimes solved. I dont want to pretend laws on the book exactly match community expectations but that is the idea. The issue is that the scheme as described doesnt just require the high manpower option but incentivises it.

His whole shtick is that you lose the intangibles. The parts of policing that cannot be measured. The crimes that are deterred by that beat cop not spending 4 hours after every interaction writing paperwork that needs to be analysed and reviewed by other people.

You take that guy off the street, and then a new crime occurs, another cop has to be dispatched, he needs to follow those leads, file more paperwork etc etc ad nauseum.

Its like, taking vaccines off the shelf because you need statistics about diseases.

Heck your own analogy "doctors save more lives by telling patients to lose weight than by everything else they do put together" is much like the authors assertion that cops preventing more crime just by being a visible presence than all their other work put together.

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you do this with everything? Search down examples of child sexual abuse material and murders before you believe they exist? I don’t think it a “dubious” claim at all - you’ve been on the internet there is a community for _everything_ it’s not surprising there is a community for this.

I suppose the difference for me is I've not seen any examples of Child sexual abuse online. Its obviously a bad thing, so steps taken to prevent that directly are a good thing. When you start restricting everyone, in order to stop that harm, then you need to start quantifying risks. This isn't arresting murderers, this is restricting the sale of rope that murderers might use on their victims. or to get more specific.…

This is restricting the sale of "how to murder people" handbooks, even at garage sales. Therefore every garage sale proprietor is burdened to make sure they aren't selling a handbook explaining how to murder people, even if they got a load of miscellaneous items from an anonymous person.

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#377
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because pedophiles and terrorists exist and this is why we can't have nice things.

And things get nicer when you kill those people. 99.999% of the population of Earth will never be directly affected by either of those two things, so at the very least you're going to have to expand on how eroding the privacy of those 8 billion people will make their life better.

Aren't the statistics on child sexual abuse pretty dire?

They certainly don't line up with 99.999% of the population of earth being unaffected.

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently not gambling though, because the gambling lobby has greased the correct pockets.

So is that an argument for banning gambling ads as well, rather than not banning ads for unhealthy ultraprocessed foods?

It's not really an "argument" at all. Although it is proof that government policy around advertising bans (like all policy) is not for the good of society, but for the good of the government and their owners.

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when Russia passed those first "anti-extremist" laws making it illegal to target "identifiable social groups" with "hate speech". Then we found out that police is an "identifiable social group", and so are the MPs...

Well, I remember that case[0], the guy had written that there are no good cops and was calling for burning policemen alive on the city square in a crematorium "like in Auschwitz" and got one year of suspended sentence for that. I can't say that I disagree with the court, but that's the problem. [0] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дело_Терентьева

To add how the spiral works, those "anti-extremist" laws included the first amendment to the Internet blocking one.

Re: UK's Online Safety Act comes into force

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The purpose of the system is what it does." 99% of people are not drug dealers, yet we still experience the deadweight loss of KYC and AML. Therefore AML exists because agents of the state like to screw with us, waste our time, and steal our cash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

So your position is that we should allow criminals to launder the proceeds of violent and organised crime (with all the victims it causes) into the legitimate economy because…

Your response is similar to someone who opposes privacy activists and their fight for E2E encryption saying "so your position is that children should be sexually exploited online". It's an absurd caricaturization of a nuanced set of arguments with deeper ramifications.

No, a person who opposes heavy-handed, invasive KYC and AML laws does not argue that genuine organized crime figures and terrorists should do however they please with their money. The argument is instead that fighting these figures and their transactions shouldn't be designed in such a way that it also penalizes the vast majority of people who are doing nothing more illegal than tripping up some bullshit lazy, rote paranoid financial legal framework.

Also, like many other kinds of privacy, financial privacy should be a right that isn't exclusive to government black budgets and well-connected elites.

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