Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 1001 posts

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#371

Post by wizzwizz4 »

bastawhiz wrote: post #365
thomastjeffery wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about relative safety compared to all human driving. We all know that some humans are sometimes terrible drivers! We also know what that looks like: Driving too fast or slow relative to surroundings. Quickly turning every once in a while to stay in their lane. Aggressively weaving through traffic. Going through an intersection without spending the time to actually look for pedestrians. The list goes on.…

> Bad automated driving is invisible. I'm literally saying that it is visible, to me, the passenger. And for reasons that aren't just bad vibes. If I'm in an Uber and I feel unsafe, I'll report the driver. Why would I pay for my car to do that to me?

GP means that the signs aren't obvious to other drivers. We generally underestimate how important psychological modelling is for communication, because it's transparent to most of us under most circumstances, but AI systems have very different psychology to humans. It is easier to interpret the body language of a fox than a self-driving car.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#372

Post by ethbr1 »

misiti3780 wrote: post #356
modeless wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla jumped the gun on the FSD free trial earlier this year. It was nowhere near good enough at the time. Most people who tried it for the first time probably share your opinion. That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6. It will still make mistakes from time to time but the improvement is massive and obvious. More importantly,…

i have the same experience 12.5 is insanely good. HN is full of people that dont want self driving to succeed for some reason. fortunately, it's clear as day to some of us that tesla approach will work

Curiousity about why they're against it and enunciating your why you think it will work would be more helpful.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#373

Post by unbrice »

valval wrote: post #344
timabdulla wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is dangerous in your anecdotes, why don't the reported numbers show more accidents when FSD is on? Even if it is true that the data show that with FSD (not Autopilot) enabled, drivers are in fewer crashes, I would be worried about other confounding factors. For instance, I would assume that drivers are more likely to engage FSD in situations of lower complexity (less traffic, little construction or other impe…

[flagged]

> Either the system causes less loss of life than a human driver or it doesn’t. The confounding factors don’t matter.

Confounding factors are what allows one to tell appart "the system cause less loss of life" from "the system causes more loss of life yet it is only enabled in situations were fewer lives are lost".

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#374

Post by TheCleric »

bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

> Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it.

There’s a simple answer to this. As soon as it’s good enough for Tesla to accept liability for accidents. Until then if Tesla doesn’t trust it, why should I?

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#375

Post by gamblor956 »

frabjoused wrote: post #262
bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

The thing that doesn't make sense is the numbers. If it is dangerous in your anecdotes, why don't the reported numbers show more accidents when FSD is on? When I did the trial on my Tesla, I also noted these kinds of things and felt like I had to take control. But at the end of the day, only the numbers matter.

The numbers collected by the NHTSA and insurance companies do show that FSD is dangerous...that's why the NHTSA started investigating and its why most insurance companies won't insure Tesla vehicles or charge significantly higher rates.

Also, Tesla is known to disable self-driving features right before collisions to give the appearance of driver fault.

And the coup de grace: if Tesla's own data showed that FSD was actually safer, they'd be shouting it from the moon, using that data to get self-driving permits in CA, and offering to assume liability if FSD actually caused an accident (like Mercedes does with its self driving system).

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#376

Post by delusional »

modeless wrote: post #312
bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

Tesla jumped the gun on the FSD free trial earlier this year. It was nowhere near good enough at the time. Most people who tried it for the first time probably share your opinion. That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6. It will still make mistakes from time to time but the improvement is massive and obvious. More importantly,…

> That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6

>And I don't even have 12.6 yet, this is still 12.5;

How am i supposed to take anything you say seriously when your only claim is a personal anecdote that doesn't even apply to your own argument. Please, think about what you're writing, and please stop repeating information you heard on youtube as if it's fact.

The is one of the reasons (among many) that I can't take Tesla booster seriously. I have absolutely zero faith in your anecdote that you didn't touch the steering wheel. I bet it's a lie.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#377

Post by mike_d »

bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

> Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it.

When I feel as safe as I do sitting in the back of a Waymo.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#378

Post by wstrange »

modeless wrote: post #312
bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

Tesla jumped the gun on the FSD free trial earlier this year. It was nowhere near good enough at the time. Most people who tried it for the first time probably share your opinion. That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6. It will still make mistakes from time to time but the improvement is massive and obvious. More importantly,…

I have a 2024 Model 3, and it's a a great car. That being said, I'm under no illusion that the car will ever be self driving (unsupervised).

12.5.6 Still fails to read very obvious signs for 30 Km/h playgrounds zones.

The current vehicles lack sufficient sensors, and likely do not have enough compute power and memory to cover all edge cases.

I think it's a matter of time before Tesla faces a lawsuit over continual FSD claims.

My hope is that the board will grow a spine and bring in a more focused CEO.

Hats off to Elon for getting Tesla to this point, but right now they need a mature (and boring) CEO.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#379

Post by eric_cc »

bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

That sucks that you had that negative experience. I’ve driven thousands of miles in FSD and love it. Could not imagine going back. I rarely need to intervene and when I do it’s not because the car did something dangerous. There are just times I’d rather take over due to cyclists, road construction, etc.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#380

Post by sebzim4500 »

rvnx wrote: post #295
frabjoused wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that doesn't make sense is the numbers. If it is dangerous in your anecdotes, why don't the reported numbers show more accidents when FSD is on? When I did the trial on my Tesla, I also noted these kinds of things and felt like I had to take control. But at the end of the day, only the numbers matter.

There is an easy way to know what is really behind the numbers: look who is paying in case of accident. You have a Mercedes, Mercedes takes responsibility. You have a Tesla, you take the responsibility. Says a lot.

Mercedes had the insight that if no one is able to actually use the system then it can't cause any crashes.

Technically, that is the easiest way to get a perfect safety record and journalists will seemingly just go along with the charade.

Post reply on HN