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Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

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Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#371

Post by SllX »

lmm wrote: post #330
SllX wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a rendering engine still a web browser if you remove all the chrome and extra features built around the rendering engine? I would say not. And it has a rendering engine: the iOS WebKit engine. It’s not Google’s preferred rendering engine and Chrome isn’t my choice of browser well, anywhere at all actually, but it’s still a functional web browser.

> Is a rendering engine still a web browser if you remove all the chrome and extra features built around the rendering engine? > I would say not. No, obviously not. If Apple were to allow third-party web rendering engines but disallow third-party web chrome that would be equally ridiculous. But just because one part of a browser is important doesn't mean that other parts of a browser aren't also important. > And it h…

> But just because one part of a browser is important doesn't mean that other parts of a browser aren't also important.

Sure, but both halves are still there. WebKit is just filling in for Blink.

> but it's not "Google's wildly popular web browser".

You want to know the screwed up part? It actually is. There’s no gun to Google’s head to list any web browser at all for iPhones in the App Store, but they do, and they themselves chose to brand it exactly the same as their desktop and Android browser; and that’s exactly how people perceive it: Google Chrome. It’s also wildly popular. I ask people about it sometimes when I see them using it and all that geeky crap that you and I know about how it’s not the same as Google’s “real” browser is beyond them. They don’t care and it’s just Google Chrome to them.

> It may be a functional web browser (honestly arguable given how old and buggy the iOS rendering engine is)

WebKit is still a top class rendering engine and only about as buggy as any other rendering engine. Blink is of the same lineage given it is a fork of WebKit and Gecko is even older.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#372

Post by makeitdouble »

toast0 wrote: post #326
makeitdouble wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the TFA > Stop requiring Google Play Billing for apps distributed on the Google Play Store (the jury found that Google had illegally tied its payment system to its app store) > Let Android developers tell users about other ways to pay from within the Play Store > Let Android developers link to ways to download their apps outside of the Play Store > Let Android developers set their own prices for apps irrespectiv…

As an Android user, I've paid for two, maybe three? apps. And got a refund on one because the paid version didn't do what I thought it said it did. The restrictions on non-Google billing did impact my employer, but it was less of a problem in the US as in some other countries where Google only billing meant we couldn't charge users as very few had Google compatible payment methods and Google wouldn't let us use other…

To note, the above restriction's impact is not only affecting paid apps, but also all the apps that could have offered paid services.

Amazon Kindle is the poster child of that, but there's a myriad of other services that won't make an app to protect their feelings structure.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#373

Post by burnerthrow008 »

mvdtnz wrote: post #361
SllX wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s only because you can’t understand that I don’t want a package manager for my package managers. I just want to install the damn software and be done with it; and I’m pretty happy with the way Apple runs the App Store as an iPhone customer , even though I think some of the restrictions are also senseless as viewed through that prism and their developer relations has been a dumpster fire for close to 10 years now…

> I just want to install the damn software and be done with it So use the built-in app store, like you are doing today.

Prey tell, how will I do that when, as has been extensively explained in this thread, every app will be in its own store?

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#374

Post by SllX »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #328
SllX wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a rendering engine still a web browser if you remove all the chrome and extra features built around the rendering engine? I would say not. And it has a rendering engine: the iOS WebKit engine. It’s not Google’s preferred rendering engine and Chrome isn’t my choice of browser well, anywhere at all actually, but it’s still a functional web browser.

> Is a rendering engine still a web browser if you remove all the chrome and extra features built around the rendering engine? Is that supposed to be a counterargument? If you can't replace the rendering engine, then you're not able to install your own web browser. If you can only replace the rendering engine, then you're not able to install your own web browser. Both of these can easily be true at the same time. > A…

>>> Is a web browser still a web browser if you remove the rendering engine?

>> Is a rendering engine still a web browser if you remove all the chrome and extra features built around the rendering engine?

> Is that supposed to be a counterargument?

Only as much as what I was responding to was an argument.

> If you can't replace the rendering engine, then you're not able to install your own web browser.

Except that is literally not true if a rendering engine is available to you to use.

> Which is replacing the one that was removed.

“Removed” would imply there was ever another rendering engine in use on Chrome for iPhones. The Chrome that is in the App Store now is one that Google chose to ship and call Chrome. People like and use it too.

I think we can agree that WebKit is being subbed in over Google’s preferred choice of rendering engines though.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#375

Post by brookst »

tiledjinn wrote: post #341
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If apple literally hadn't won their own case 2 years ago you'd be right. If the company that literally doesn't allow users to install ANY application, yet alone a whole store, is in the clear, it's mind boggling that Google's situation is the one they took issue with. Apple literally has a higher market share in the US.

Apple wasn't ruled not a monopoly. It was ruled that the evidence Epic brought in the case was insufficient to show Apple was a monopoly, and the court would entertain other arguments in the future. Apple didn't need to do anything, but they didn't "win" that convincingly.

That’s splitting hairs. By that logic nobody ever wins when they defend a lawsuit, the plaintiffs just fail to prove their point and different plaintiffs and/or different evidence might prevail in the future.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#376

Post by can16358p »

orourke wrote: post #269
ethbr1 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absent first mover advantage with the iPhone, it's extremely difficult to see Apple ending up where it is, with a closed ecosystem.

I’ve been working with React Native and Flutter and every time I have to interact directly with iOS/Android, I find that Android is much easier to work with and feels much better designed from a software/api/config perspective. Where Apple wins, however, imho is in hardware. The iPhone is a masterpiece and users can tell, even ~16 years in. I feel that when Apple finally chokes on hardware, or some player in the Andr…

Interesting, I have the exact opposite: I'm also a React Native developer and it's _always_ Android that creates all sorts of problems when developing where iOS is just fine. And it's not me: many devs in my team (and all the teams that I've also worked in the past) think the same way.

Though I'd agree with provisioning+codesigning can be a mess with iOS.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#377

Post by seydor »

Epic being the true antitrust commisionaire, having achieved more than entire groups of countries .

The ruling may be on the extreme side but it's still good to see things moving back to a more open software world. Google is probably not afraid of it, they know that their users will keep using their services because they are better . (Just like how browser choice in the EU did not move the needle).

Any rule enforcing openness should be celebrated, as a win to change the culture of walled gardens that has plagued technology for decades

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#378

Post by silverliver »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #300
015a wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counter-take to this is the web itself: There's no curation or incentive structure to the web, yet it thrives in ways far outpacing the walled garden app stores.

and likewise, 90% of people still converge onto some dozen websites per region anyway. If people really want that "one true platform", they will congregate and make that platform a monopoly. Against their best interests in my experience, but humanity sometimes need to re-learn the same pitfalls every generation.

I think the key deference here is that the web is open and people can build competitors on a level playing field. They don't have anti-competitive restrictions placed on them by their competitors (i.e. Apple and Google).

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#379

Post by seydor »

tencentshill wrote: post #21

Soon we'll have the Verizon Appstore and the Spotify Appstore and the Zoom Appstore, the exclusive home for each app and their partners, each with it's own overlapping user tracking libraries and insecure payment methods, and no one can even tell them to do otherwise. Coming soon to iOS, too!

This but unironically. Openness breeds innovation and improvement, closing down systems never does. Safety cannot be the only innovation

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#380

Post by ascagnel_ »

nijave wrote: post #234
ascagnel_ wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They got caught doing the same thing Microsoft got caught doing in the 90s with IE/Netscape -- using their monopoly position on one piece of software (Windows, the Google app suite) to prevent their OEMs from shipping another piece of software by default (Netscape, Epic Games Store) that directly competed with their own offering (Internet Explorer, Google Play Store). Since Google and Microsoft both use OEMs, unlike…

>allowing any third-party app stores Couldn't you reword that as allowing unsigned and self signed software to be installed? You can push your own apps to your iOS device but iirc Apple artificially limits the number of self signed apps that can be installed

Aside from the EU explicitly mandating it, the developer agreement you sign with Apple in order to ship software on their platform prohibits you from doing so. And while you theoretically can write your own storefront, running self-signed apps isn’t going to be a viable user story with the way Apple’s set it up (intentionally, in my opinion).
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